Who disagrees with DIR and why?

[MNLakeDiver]

I have also taken my octo on long hose out and restored it durring dives and can easly do it one handed. I just have the hose tucked into the waist strap of my bc with the octo on my chest without any bungie/octo holder etc. as those have always been more of a problem then any thing else.

[scubadog76]

It's all about preference. I feel the Octo I have breathes great. It can be handed off easilyand allows me to keep breathing while assisting my buddy who may have other problems besides just being out of air. Sure they need air in an Fricken hurry, but I be dmned if they are pulling 2 bodies out of the water. You are not doing your buddy any favors by being starved for air yourself. In a class I took this spring, a buddy and I had to swap our entire gear sets underwater While sharing a reg. It gets pretty intense waiting for that air to come back while at the same time performing a task or 2 to stablize their situation. The best way to avoid this in my eyes is to hand them the octo while your breathing doesn't get interupted. If you re-read the earliest post I put in on this thread, I agreed that a long octo was a good idea. My gripe was giving up a primary reg when your secondary is not in use. You can bash my gear if you want as I feel most of your gear looks like a whoopie cushion with a seat belt wrapped around It. Ultimately,if any diver came up to me waving the out of air signal, I would hand them my octo-every time. If they put their hands on their hips and point at my primary, I'll recognize they are 100% DIR. This thread was about who disagrees with DIR and why. I told you A few issues I have with it still am Convinced I won't ever need to or desire to instill it's practices. I am also convinced that any emergency my buddy has, I will de-fuse in an appropriate an successful manner. Not with a check-list or diving with those who carry a certain C-card, but with common sense, quick decision making. My dive training has been more main stream and there is more likelyhood that I will be diving with someone who has similar reactions to emergencies as well which would be more likely to help me in the case of an emergency (yes I know why DIR divers always dive with DIR divers.....supposedly) Ultimately, I enjoy diving with a large variety of people and don't want my safety in the balance on whether or not I know the secret hand-shake. Take the fricken octo and you owe me a case of beer when we're on land! 8)

[jasondbaker]

I dove with a octo and short hose for several years. I did all my classes through DM with a standard padi rig. I switched to a long hose because of several practical problems I encountered with the configuration. Technical divers (the same people that brought us the octo/backup) have been using a better system since the 70's.



Except the long hose is twice as long as your octo hose. Also the primary was tested 5 seconds before handing it to the OOA diver. The same cannot be said in most cases for an octo.

If you want to assume toe octo is bad then I can assume your backup is bad and now their are 2 paniced divers as the first was out of air and took the only good air source from his buddie.

Your assumption supports donating the primary. Let's say your assumption is true: both divers have a non-functioning backup reg. Then donating the primary is the ONLY course of action.

If we create a matrix of all the possiblities (i.e., both divers have working backup regs, one diver has working backup reg, no divers have working backup regs), you will find that donating the primary works in every case. Whereas donating the backup/octo will fail in some cases. Why not simply follow a process that works in every case?

If both backup regs fail then you would have to buddy breath. Remember this from the OW pool class? This is a good skill to practice from time to time. I can understand how a diver might panic if not prepared for this possiblity. But that is a deficiency in the diver, not the process.

[jasondbaker]

scubadog76, you probably had to perform the gear exchange in your DM class. But you were also faced with additional task loading. It is likely that one buddy had to remove their mask and their reg at the same time. That is when the true panic sets in (fun to watch!). Your scenario is very different than switching from a primary to a backup reg.

You may not feel comfortable switching regs in your mouth. That will come with additional experience and training. The most important thing is to save your buddy.

If/when you decide to take more technical courses you will have to adapt.

[beeger]

The problem is that the OOA diver needs air NOW, and YOU need to deal with that person's situation first because that is the problem at hand. Let's say you go to your backup and something is wrong with it (unlikely because you checked it at the start of the dive but it could happen). Well, then you have to handle that situation next: e.g. buddy breathe, figure out if your buddy is really out of air, get to an alternate air source if applicable, etc.. Most of which suck to do but you are in a better position than your buddy to handle the situation. Keeping you and your buddy's gear configuration consistent makes this process somewhat easier. Having your buddy on a long hose while you are going through this makes the process much easier. You don't further penalize the OOA buddy by taking chances like handing off something you are not 100% sure is working. This is why concepts such as breathing/donating the long hose can NOT be separated from other concepts like team/buddy diving, as well as fitness and dive planning. Disregard the later and the former loses much of its value.

[MNLakeDiver]

Except the long hose is twice as long as your octo hose. Also the primary was tested 5 seconds before handing it to the OOA diver. The same cannot be said in most cases for an octo.

If you want to assume toe octo is bad then I can assume your backup is bad and now their are 2 paniced divers as the first was out of air and took the only good air source from his buddie.

Your assumption supports donating the primary. Let's say your assumption is true: both divers have a non-functioning backup reg. Then donating the primary is the ONLY course of action.

If we create a matrix of all the possiblities (i.e., both divers have working backup regs, one diver has working backup reg, no divers have working backup regs), you will find that donating the primary works in every case. Whereas donating the backup/octo will fail in some cases. Why not simply follow a process that works in every case?

If both backup regs fail then you would have to buddy breath. Remember this from the OW pool class? This is a good skill to practice from time to time. I can understand how a diver might panic if not prepared for this possiblity. But that is a deficiency in the diver, not the process.
[/quote]

I hope somone is not diving with a 12 foot hose (twice the lenth of my octo)
and I rember buddie breathing from Sat. when my buddie and I did it from one of the platforms in Squair lake to shore (on a short hose ) when buddie breathing I stay close to my buddie not 7 feet away.

my main problem with breathing the long hose is I have nothing on my right side to route it around so it floats lose. I also don't have the money for a canaster light.
I also donot like the fit of a standerd backplate I find them too short for my body. if I adjust them lower then the short inflater hose DIR calls for is almost unreachable. and I donot see what I could do with a BP that my BC can't do.

[Dirk Diggler]

It seems to me in a sense that when the “debate” of whether one should be DIR or not, many keep circling back to the equipment configuration and whether its justified or not? I think its simply most divers’ nature to focus on the equipment, as this sport is centered on it. Though I believe some of those DIR gear configurations are NOT useful in some environments (though DIR claims to be) and some of the non-DIR configurations are NOT useful in others. That debate could go on forever, and if you find some open-minded DIR divers, I’m sure their always adjusting their gear sets also. DIR is not about the gear, otherwise it wouldn’t be an agency. DIR is about a its set standards, procedures, lifestyle, and attitude.

DIR created its own challenge (and flaw IMO) by it’s proponent name and its guise in and of itself, “Doing It Right”; as if all others have done it wrong or are doing it wrong? Sure, the name is an intriguing sales ploy – it got all of you interested at first, right? But it sets a standard of being a negative approach, one that doesn't embrace. But people are flawed and will never be able to fully do it perfectly, even if they label their attempt as doing so. So then when it comes down to the other DIR divers I've met, there's a few that stand out too much. Those who have been so brainwashed by their own self-righteous attitudes that they believe themselves to be an elitist or have achieved a level above all others (i.e. DRE) and then start name calling those who are inferior to them, as in “strokes”, etc.

So, its those who are the DIR-way-or-the-highway seemingly fascist-style evangelists that drum up the controversy. And where do they get a following? Why would you someone want to emulate a bully, some self-righteous know-it-all, or an elitist who considers all others inferior to them and the way they do things? I see only those who are self-conscious and have an inferiority complex to do so. As if their poo doesn't stink, and they are so much better than others. That rubs me the wrong way. Insert DRE here and I’m sure he’d say “screw you if you don’t like, you're just a stroke waiting to happen and they can't dive with the almighty dive king DRE.” I'll put my experience up against DRE any day and moreover, I think its just brainwashing those like him are propogating. I doubt they've even been in a cave (its true DRE never used a rebreather but acted like he was an authority on one), and I doubt most of the DIR-diehards are anything more than internet-divers. I would hope that kind of attitude is not what DIR is teaching as part of their fundamentals? Well if birds of a feather flock together, then DIR will remain on the outskirts of the diving community because of that egotistical attitude.

When this sport is supposed to be fun, for DIR to judge others as not doing it right is ludicris. Who is DIR to say who is excluded from this sport of diving and who isn’t? And why is it some people like DRE feel as if the whole world needs to know and learn DIR?

In the years I’ve been diving I’ve been all over the world and met a lot of our diving leaders and read a lot of other's exploits and research into the underwater realm. DIR is NOT the prevalent way for the majority of the divers who are pushing the edge and showing us the future. The people who do things are out doing them, not chatting about it. Their gear, training, and outlook is not labeled DIR, its simply getting the job done safetly and constantly evolving. And non of those leaders who are accomplishing so much, have half the attitude that make up the DIR camp nor do they put down others.

DRE and Kitty strong-armed and pushed for a DIR section when it was not needed. Now without any advanced DIR authority present, nor a unbiased levelheaded moderator available, I see no justification for DIR to be anything but a section in an advanced topic area. A year from now, this section will be collecting dust, just as it was before and after DRE and Kitty left to go be-little others elsewhere. Already its only become a debate of long hose or not and the focus is already away from DIR.

I enjoy being, what the little minded would label me as 'a stroke', as I don’t want to be the boy in the bubble who can’t go out and make mistakes and learn in the world. I enjoy OC, rebreathers, free diving, and plain having FUN in the water.
I enjoy not being perfect, but while all those who debate whether their attitude and gear is good enough to be judged or alienating by others, I and the majority will be out there having fun recreational diving and learning by our mistakes - but yet SAFE all the same!

[beeger]

Just a couple of quick thoughts: I use a standard length back plate and I'm 6'3" tall. It works great. Were you lowering it for reasons of trim? If you are interested in trying this again maybe we could move this conversation over to the equipment forum and discuss backplate/harness fitting. Also, for single tank diving I use a 6 foot hose because I'm not routing it behind a canister. It goes under my right arm and stays there without any trouble. If you are horizontal (or something approximating horizontal) in the water the hose will float up against your body and stay out of the way.

[MNLakeDiver]

[/quote]

Thanks for the offer but at this point I see no benefit to a BP wings setup.If you do want to try to convince me I will read what you post in a Equipment disscussion. but rember I am open minded but my wife is closed checkbooked

[scubadog76]

Jason, I don't know how you keep arriving at the area that I'm not comfortable taking the reg. out of my mouth or any of the other "son, some day this will be all yours" stuff. What I am trying to emphasize is the that the order in which DIR handles things is not the order in which I would do things and therefore, I Do It Rong.