Who disagrees with DIR and why?

[LKunze]

Here's a thread for non-DIR divers to tell what they do not like or disagree with about the DIR dive system. I am not starting this thread in hopes for it to be a flame war. Keep in mind, I am not a certified DIR diver myself but "lean" that way. I'll probably take the DIR-F class next year if I have the cash...yep, I know excuses, excuses. : Anyway, I've read a lot on DIR on internet forums and websites, have listened to all of the DIR audio lectures I could find, read the DIR fundamentals book, etc. I am pretty familiar with the reasons "why" things are done the way they do them in the DIR system. I guess I am curious as to "why" people don't agree with DIR practices. I'd like to hear specifics on this, not generalizations like "I don't like DIR because some a**clown on the internet said I was a stroke" But rather things with some substance like:

I do not like the long hose and bungeed backup regulator configuration because ___________

I do not like a backplate/wing because_____________

I do not wear my instruments (bottom timer/computer/compass) on my wrists because___________

I do not agree with the way DIR diving handles their gas management and labeling of gas mixes etc. because _________

I do not like the DIR fitness standards because___________

**Feel free to add anything else to the discussion. Just trying to get something going here because I know several divers locally dive a DIR-esque way but do not fully agree with the DIR system. Some people who are not DIR but are curious about it may learn some things from the discussion as well. It will also give a chance for someone who subscribes to DIR to offer some counter discussion to those who disagree with certain things in the DIR practice... (keeping it civil and constructive of course. )

[Chuck_Northrup]

I think the real issue here is (as usual) separating DIR from Hogarthian. You are opening the door for a very lively debate, so I’ll bite. ;D

I disagree with the DIR mentality because I am a stroke. The rebreather issue is an obvious one so lets just move on. As for equipment, much of their configuration makes sense, but it IS NOT the only way you can safely dive. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using an air integrated dive computer, jacket style BCD, Air source alternate (Air II) for recreational diving. If diving were truly as dangerous as some would like to believe why is there not the data to support that hypothesis?

Tech diving is another matter altogether and if you are going to use one system for both Tec and Rec then Hogarthian is a good way to go, but strive for consistency not complacency. DIR and GUE were born in cave country and evolved out of one particular cave system for one particular dive and IT MAKES SENSE! Try to apply all of these ideas to Midwest shipwreck or quarry diving and much of it is lost in the translation.

The problem lies within where you draw the line between what is and is not DIR. It is much more than equipment it is a mentality. A “kinder gentler DIR” is kind of an oxy-moron. You are either DIR or you are not, “do or do not, there is no try”—Yoda. Someone progressing towards DIR is not a DIR diver. A square making the progression to a circle may be a hexagon, then an octogon but until it sheds all angles and straight lines it will never be a circle.

My favorite acronym for DIR is Divers Ignoring Reality. Do not take this as the slam it appears to be, but hear me out. Just about everything they stand for has its validity and almost all of their “ideals” can be considered something to strive for (fitness/team concepts/etc) but it is absolutely not the alpha and omega of scuba diving.

Does DIR have its place in the dive community? Absolutely. Would a DIR section constructively run, benefit this forum? Yes. Can we find a truly ‘DIR’ (meaning fully educated through the GUE programs) diver to be unbiased and open to alternate viewpoints? This remains to be seen. ???

In short I think most people do not necessarily "disagree" with DIR as much as "not totally agree' with DIR.

CN3

[tpscuba]

Everyone has their nitch to fall into as long as it works for you great.
We had 22 divers that were DIR on the last trip I just came back from. Like other sports ie; boating, 4-wheeeling, snowmobiling we tend to judge the lot for the actions of a few. I do like some of the configurations of the divers. The alternate to some extent, I also like the safety tube when making an assent when away from the mooring line if there is one. Some of the gear with this group reminded me of the Man from Menards walking out of his garage geared up for work.
Got along with them but a few figured if you didn't suit up as they did you weren't a real diver. Every dive in BC is tide directed 10 to 15 foot change. I watched a few of them pull at the coral, freak out octopus with their bright Dive Rite lights, poke at things with their knives, disturb fish sleeping on a night dive. (this was only about 5 or 6) They had nice hats that said "WE DO IT RIGHT" Their group leaders talked to them but it seemed to go in one ear and out the other, but as he said they pay for the trip I'm hear to make money. With the group I was with we had our regular BC our 4 battery lights and our cameras, we mingled with them and had a great time just stayed clear of the 1/2 dozen.
I like seeing new things and if it will work for me I would most definately incorpate it some way. I am putting an extra pocket on my new dry suit to carry a small line real and lift bag. I already have a safety tube in my BC pocket.
Diving is great and diving safely is a must. See you out there soon.
Rick

[scubadog76]

If you think about it, there are hundreds of different certification agencies out there that each teach things their own way. There is PADI, NAUI, SSI, WASI, YMCA and so on. I have met plenty of divers and really had no idea what agency they were certified though (ignoring the gear configurations :) They were just divers! The problem comes in when people add a "pedestal" into their gear configuration. The biggest mistake anyone can make diving is to feel they carry a "silver bullet" with them. Also, to discedit someone for not learning the way they did screams of insecurity and definately hinders the cause they think they're promoting. My experience has been similar to tpscuba's in that it's usually just a small handful that does a whole lotta damage to the masses. (As Lonnie calls them, "the a** clowns"). To me it seems that the hardest promoters of DIR just don't seem to have that much fun diving and steer alot of people away. Keep in mind, I am only talking about a very limited few. I have met DIR divers that are great people as well. It's the Global Underwter Evangelists that cause their own limitations.

[jasondbaker]

My sense is that many recreational divers feel DIR is "too safe".

I contend that the DIR/DUE system provides greater diving safety than any recreational dive training today. The specific equipment requirements, diving methods, and required training support this argument. DIR was designed to be safe first. PADI was designed to be fun. DIR was designed to keep people from killing themselves in extreme environments such as caves. PADI was designed to introduce as many people as possible to diving in a fun, safe way.

DIR divers are like people that wear motorcycle helmets. While many cyclists have survived without helmets for years, and may look down upon people that wear them, they know deep in their hearts that it probably is a smart idea.

[lrmoll]

I don't think it is "too safe." There are many good ideas there and a number will migrate into standard diving as the original "Octopus did" (Safe Second Regulator). I just think some things are carried to a burdensome extreme for the casual recreational diver who never goes deep or into overhead environments. Some things I suspect are statistically insignificant or are assumed to increase safety when they really haven't.

I suppose one can claim that something the increases safety by .000001 is safer but it is swamped in all the other variables that affect safety. In DAN's accident studies they admit that sample sizes and information available is often too small to be statistically significant but it's all they have.

We are all diving today because an organization like PADI thought that simple diving within limits was not as death defying as everyone wanted to think and spawned an industry. If Dir caught on then another agency like PADI
would arise making diving available for the masses again.

Questions:
Has DIR reached the pinacle of safe diving and nothing will change ever again?
Has standard Diving reached an acceptable level of safety?

[Mark Y]

Ahhh, actually you're an 'instrokter'. ;D

I'm a stoke because I dive a rebreather, it's that black & white. I'm not opposed to DIR, they are opposed to me. :-\

[DiveCaptDean]

Jason, I think you make some great points. But...i personally would liken my diving style to a person wearing a cycle helmet. I dive safe, and with redundant systems. DIR I would liken them to a guy that runs a 1200 cc crotch rocket with a black full face helmet, black full body leathers, and black steel toe boots. ;D ok, ok just kidding.

Question..is DIR the end? Hell no..personally i think rebreathers are the future. I think they are the S=H=I=T now, ( i dont have one) and i think they are the new wave...

Yes, i think standard recreational diving is safe enough. Keep out of caves..shipwrecks..deep current..bad viz....cold water...If you stay away from that type of diving...Its very safe. When you start adding these variables...more education and more equipment is needed...If you follow those guidelines, i still think it is quite safe if you get the info and gear.

[DiveCaptDean]

Also, I have NO information to support this, but...i bet that if you compared..in percentages...the number of divers that died diving in warm, recreational, high viz water to those super certified deep wreck, deep dive, cave divers...that you may find more accident comparatively....
Anyone have any numbers to dispute this...?

[jacobsonc2]

;D ummm.... my bike is 1200cc, a crotch rocket though i prefer sport bike, have a tinted black visor, just got a black leather jacket, and were all black when i am riding most of the time..... :o and still i am stroked out all of the time! he he he