What training/experiences make for better scuba divers

[freedivernd]

I've been watching a thread get a bit out of whack and the subject kinda drifted to something about hands entangled, so, thought I'd start a thread in that jist of things.

Here's a thought I had.. if you really want to get to where you can maintain some composure when sh!+ hits the fan underwater while scuba diving, come with me down about 100' on just a breath.. I don't think there is one thing that compares to the calming effect you will have scuba diving after having learned to freedive.  Even though I don't scuba often.. and because of this I know, since I took up freediving, my air use when I scuba is similar or better to someone who has far more experience than I do.  One think you learn real quick in freediving is... you have time, so take your time.  Controlling your adrenaline and heart rate is a must.

I also believe our dark water experiences have almost as much benefit to remaining calm if there is adversity while scuba diving.  All of a sudden, diving in blue water is like a dream compared to what we normally see.  Which sometimes, isn't much.

Fred

[Hydro]

better is kind of vague here, it can used to imply a lot of things
In comparison to others or oneself?
In comparison air consumption
Better Gear setups
Experiences and or knowledge
Better physical conditioning
Mental conditioning
Better additudes
Better at being a buddy?
Better reputations?
Better equalizing times
Better at not freaking out?
Better at not drowning?

I don't think silly bondage stunts or underwater wrestling make someone a better diver, and training, agencies, and instructors only can go so far, the horse decides to drink or not in the end.

There's multiple definitions for being better, so there are going to be many methods to get better.

[arcFlash]

I'll bite.

Training: Cave training is the best dive money I ever spent. I don't dive caves and didn't plan too. I took the training in order to get instruction from people who do not sell c-cards. You have to earn them. I use those cave skills all the time.

Experience: Biting the tabs off your mouth piece is worth something. After that you know what it takes to get scared.

My deepest free dive is 28 feet (Portsmouth beach, about 50 seconds.) and it was a little frightening to look up and know you can't mess up or sneeze. I don't know how you guys do it and with the risks, I don't think I'm fit to try.

[Shooter]

Silly? training for real life entanglement hazards silly? Almost as silly as being able to deploy your cutting device to get untangled.
the horse may decide to drink, but it is the instructors job to provide the "water". Training for entanglement issues would be a good drink.

[Hydro]

You are out of your element here donnie.. infact you totally missed the boat of my argument... I was referring to Buds training where you 'escape enemies' tied up... don't try to change the point to something else....ok im guessing you were referring to falling face first out of the boat with your arm in your BC... the buds thing was from the other thread

There's a class where you tie each other up for a civilian c-card aye? I doub't anyone would dare teach a class like the military where death isn't uncommon in training exercises

as for the horse drinking the water, what is meant by that is training is the water, but the horse decides if he wants to follow his training or not, i hear about divers disregarding what they were trained to do all the time, many times training pales to experience, good or bad.

[DetectorGuy]

Excellent post! And of course I have an opinion. The best training in the world is to get out there and dive, dive, dive and dive some more. If I may use our 4 man dive team as an example: We keep a training log for our little dive team stating where the training was, what the training topic was, what the water temp was, what the air temp was, notable lessons learned from the training session, ETC...

In 2009 each of our dive team members trained for 171 hours (that is 21.6 eight hour days). We turn these reports in to the County quarterly to let the Sheriff know we were earning our non-existent pay.
1st quarter 2009 we had 75 hours each
2nd quarter 2009 we had 23 hours each
3rd quarter 2009 we had 55 hours each
4th quarter 2009 we had 18 hours each
We were kinda shocked that we had spent that much time in a year training for different scenarios that could happen during most any scuba dive... Until 2010.

1st quarter 2010 we had 60.5 hours each
2nd quarter 2010 we had 91.5 hours each
3rd quarter 2010 we had 83 hours each
4th quarter 2010 we had 65 hours each
This totaled up to 300 hours of training in 2010 (37.5 eight hour days) for each of us.

Keep in mind this is a part time, non-paying gig for us, and each of us have day jobs and busy personal schedules. The range of training was wide from vehicle recovery, unattached diver rescue under ice, thin ice rescue, swift water, swift water ice, underwater re-compression, search pattern, AGA, CPR, AED, O2 provider, underwater crime scene investigation, tow sled, body recovery training (and otherwise), evidence recovery, black water, high angle water rescue, ETC...
With all these different scenarios we trained on, I think the panicked diver rescue was the most memorable, where one would resist and literally fight (like a real drowning scuba diver would do) as we took turns "rescuing" them. Another memorable one was when we would take turns wrapping ourselves up in rope in about 30' water and one of the others would come down and try to deploy one of their 3 cutting devices and cut the diver out of the tangle without cutting the pseudo panicky tangled  "victim". The disconnected diver drill was an eye opener too. Even though it was a planned drill, The "what if it really happened" thing kept running through my head as I was searching for the "lost ice diver".

So when people giggle about taking training to the extremes... I say hogwash! There are some very, very good divers that don't train for these worst case scenarios. Many of these excellent divers are a better diver than I will ever be, but when the sh!t hits my fan, I want muscle memory to kick in when my senses start to fade in the heat of the moment. The main thing is don't ever, ever dive outside of your training. If you do, your final ascent could be in a bag with one of us at your side.

[Hydro]

a lot of training and diving books I've read talk about diving fitness, there is hardly any talk of that on this board...doesn't DIR have a whole checklist?  when it comes to freediving I admit I'm a novice and I maybe only go freediving 2-3 times a year, but I do a lot of weight training targeting specific muscles, pool training underwater, and breath holding... I think training makes me better only to a certain point, if I was actually doing what I train for I'm sure id get way better faster...

But, I'm positive physical fitness is a huge factor even if its not noteworthy. if I didn't. Weight train, I'm not sure just diving would be enough to increase strength and endurance.. id guess diving would be more likely to just wear me out.

[Shooter]

Whose donnie you silly rabbit? I saw the training on navy divers. We haven't Inc. it yet, But I hope to the next time we have the pool reserved. Yes physical training is important, and it will make you a better diver, but it's not nearly as important as mental strength. And that is what is going to help you in those emergency type situations. We have had several real-life recovery calls working for the county in less than ideal conditions. Fortunately we spent a lot of time training for these scenarios. When it happened, muscle memory kicked in, things went smooth, and we got the job done safely and professionaly.

And no I didn't fall out of the boat into the water. I was in the water trying to get back into the boat when I didn't unhook my inflator hose. Yes, it was a "silly" mistake, and you can make fun of it all you want. But if it helps one person reading this thread from making the same mistake, it was all worth it.





You are out of your element here donnie.. infact you totally missed the boat of my argument... I was referring to Buds training where you 'escape enemies' tied up... don't try to change the point to something else....ok im guessing you were referring to falling face first out of the boat with your arm in your BC... the buds thing was from the other thread

There's a class where you tie each other up for a civilian c-card aye? I doub't anyone would dare teach a class like the military where death isn't uncommon in training exercises

as for the horse drinking the water, what is meant by that is training is the water, but the horse decides if he wants to follow his training or not, i hear about divers disregarding what they were trained to do all the time, many times training pales to experience, good or bad.
[/quote]
I don't train for plastic or ego. I train to become a better diver, swimmer, and to be able to provide aid to other divers, swimmers, and people in need.

[Hydro]

No I actually thought you were referring to something other than your experience at first, we are getting bondage talk mixed up.

Donnie is a big lebowski movie reference  john goodman's character always tells donnie he is wrong.

[ballfrog]

The main thing is don't ever, ever dive outside of your training. If you do, your final ascent could be in a bag with one of us at your side.

I somewhat disagree with that premise.  I think it's much more important to not dive outside your experience,comfort and abilities.  I'll admit that training may provide some experience and give some clues to ability.  But with that said, I've had the experience of "partners" bolting for the surface or even not being able to connect a regulator to a valve even though they held a certification, meaning they've been trained. 

Fortunately the panicked buddy didn't hurt herself playing "flying fish" and I went on to finish the dive solo after she got back on the boat.  The other incident the divemaster tossed the "equipment challenged guy" off the boat and told him to try again after a refresher. 

I can agree that people shouldn't dive without training, but they shouldn't assume that the training has prepared them.


I spend thousands of hours a year under water and I still do stupid stuff like lose weights, run out of air, get into overhead environments and entanglements, etc.  Since I seldom dive deeper than 20 feet I'm comfortable with those situations - other than the overhead.  Bogs and I have an uneasy truce.  But since I have to worry about nitrogen loading and no decomp thresholds and air consumption, I'm not comfortable with working at 40+ foot depths even though I've been trained and re-trained for that at different certifications.