Ice diving

[DetectorGuy]

The color code is not written anywhere that I know but the one I mentioned is what Art (AandA) and Nate (Shooter) and I use. I think a couple of old school Public Safety Divers use that color scheme too. It makes tons of sense to standardize some of this stuff like rope markings, rope signals, etc... Another thing to remember is we as divers are programed to "adapt and overcome" If we have a big group and someone has a rope marked differently than I am used to, I am not going to sit out any dives for that reason. Some of my opinions are gleaned from watching other people and some is from the training we have done over the last year for the PSD team. I am sure that alot of you can appreciate the fact that standardization can and will minimize mistakes.
Rope length. Imagine a lost diver scenario at 25' from the hole. The safety diver jumps in and swims just under the ice sheet out to 50' and is stopped by the tender. He then swims a 314' circumference and then back 50' to the hole. That Safety diver just swam 138 yards! If the diver was lost at 175' the safety diver would need to swim 552 yards! If the missing diver is not found, a search on the bottom would be in order... My personal ropes are 150' and 180' marked with the color code mentioned in an earlier post. I have 2 Ice screws (not the turbo screws like Shooters), and 4 locking caribiners. I have a 5 HP Husquevarna with a 20" bar (I really want to get a 36" bar but I don't think Santa will pull that one off). Using rope signals on a rope much longer than these would be kinda dicey: "What we have here is a failure to communicate". The longer communication lines I mentioned earlier actually were purchased for the County to be used with two Divator full face masks (AGA) with communication built in. We can talk between two divers and one tender at the same time. While using these AGA's, rope signals are just used for a redundant way to signal if the batteries go dead in the communicator. The ropes were made this long (250' and 300') for a worst case scenario like needing to tend from a bridge or dam, or tending from shore doing search patterns. The comm ropes are heavy with the 4 wires running in each of them and they tend to drag on the bottom alot. The other drawback from using the AGA's is I seem to go through more air when using it compared to a conventional reg. They have an ambient air valve on them so that when on the surface the automatic Ambient air valve is open and you are not breathing from your tank. This helps to conserve air, but There is something about it that makes me not focus on my breathing rate. Once you hit the water it closes and stays closed for the most part. If you stand on your head the automatic ambient air valve will open and flood the mask instantly. This is why most PSD divers do not get an AGA with the ambient air valve. A flooded mask with contaminated water is not a good thing. We overcome this down fall by manually shutting the valve after entering the water and it is pretty much bombproof. Another downfall to the AGA is that the hose comes from your left side. Unless you have a first stage that is dedicated to the AGA, it means that you need to switch it around from the conventional right side reg.

The plus side the information transfer is instantaneous and accurate. I would be more comfortable doing a deep Ice dive with the AGA than using rope signals. Rope signal example: You are down at 75' and something goes wrong like you are filling an air bag and "over breathing" your reg. It free flows and you have a knee jerk reaction and give 4 tugs. The tender wants to help you and proceeds to pull you in as fast as he or she can. Now you are in trouble as you are not in control of your ascent any more. Bummer for you. With an AGA you can simply state your condition and have full control.

Rope signals. Last year we talked about trying to find a standard recreational rope signal that at least us locals can adhere to. We (in this forum) came up with Zilch. Each of you have signals that you are fond of and they are probably different from the next person. That is ok... if at the dive site a short Pre-task-Plan is made with all parties involved and agree as to what is going to be used on that particular day. This sounds good but if you all agree to it on the surface and when the sh@% hits the fan on the bottom that diver forgot what was discussed. He just knows that he is in trouble and starting to freak. If is were a "learned" rope signal and not just a "heard that day" signal it would be second nature. There are a few sets of signals that I know of:
Some Public Safety Divers use this:
Tender to diver
   * One pull on the line: okay, okay?
   * Two pulls: stop, take out slack, reverse direction
   * Three pulls: come to the surface
   * Four pulls: stop, don't move (there could be danger ahead or a boat entering the search area)
Diver to tender
   * One pull on the line: okay, okay?
   * Two pulls: advance line
   * Three pulls: object found
   * Four or more pulls: assistance needed
These signals work good during search patterns but are more than a recreational Ice diver needs. They make sense if you realize that each signal can have a multiple meaning depending on the activity. The one pull and the four pull are the most common and the two pulls from the diver can come into play if they spy an anchor just out of reach at the end of their rope. They cant figure out why you don't give them slack and give you the 2 tugs. No agency has a signal for "sorry buddy that is all the rope you get "

That is about all that I think I know for now, but I am always learning.

[scubajunkie]

  I took my ice diving thru ScubaCenter a year prior to this video.  They run a good class.  ArcFlash is right, there is only one line.  Diver #1 is attached to the main line and gives the signals.  Divers 2 and 3 are attached to the main line with jon lines that slide up and down, so if they have a problem that they cannot fix, they can return to the hole.  Also eliminates confusion with signals by only having one diver giving the signals.  I'd recommend their class to anyone.

[arcFlash]

Freaking out is the biggest problem. Don't freak out and you'll have time to think about what you can do to improve your situation. Once someone is truly frightened even trained skills break down. I've seen it on technical rock climbs more then once and I got gripped once myself. It you believe your minutes from dieing your mind does what it can to prepare. After a few minutes, I accepted dieing as a possible outcome then I was free to work out a solution. Before that I was too frightened to do anything.

For Rec. ice, I really only see 2 signals and they are mostly all the same, regardless of agency, 1 is ok, 4 or more is bad. The 2 and 3 aren't really needed if the tender is paying attention. They tend the tension on the line and pay out what they have in kind. Retracting any extra so unless your working on a task, 90% of us will only give 1 or 4.

Color codes need to also account for color blind. I like using numbers.

[JointVentureDive]

ARCHFLASH and DETECTORGUY.
I like what you both said.
Archflash, you thoughts one limiting the signals and keeping it simple if you will,  seems to be the most practical.

DetectorGuy,  you thoughts on  ("That Safety diver just swam 138 yards! If the diver was lost at 175' the safety diver would need to swim 552 yards!)  was brilliant.  Just think about the multiple of the 360 at 175  feet.)  ALSO... ( BRILLIANT)

Also,  GRUMPIE (WHAT A NAME)  had something in one of his posts about max length the PSD divers go.  I think that makes a lot of sense to.

I do not like all of the signals 1, 2, 3, 4, or 1, 2, 3, 4 depending upon if you a tender or the diver.  to confusing, and


I ALSO LIKED WHAT DECTECTORGUY wrote:  (That is OK... if at the dive site a short Pre-task-Plan is made with all parties involved and agree as to what is going to be used on that particular day. This sounds good but if you all agree to it on the surface and when the sh@% hits the fan on the bottom that diver forgot what was discussed. He just knows that he is in trouble and starting to freak. If is were a "learned" rope signal and not just a "heard that day" signal it would be second nature. )  I AGREE, PEOPLE REACT TO WHAT THEY'VE BEEN TAUGHT AS 2ND NATURE, MORE SO THEN ON A PRE DIVE PLAN if poop hits the fan. 

Also I read a (Post) from MAXFACTOR from a year ago where he suggested that the ice divers and or shop instructors get together and STANDARDIZE a procedure, so that everyone is on the same page.  Thats make a lot of sense to me.


QUESTION,  for the ice divers  ..
Do you ever cut multiple holes in the ice example...  (2)    one would be about 125 feet " say North "  of your original main dive hole. 

Do you ever drop a main line down and light it with a strobe or anything like that?
Thanks for any thoughts you have.

Nicki.

   

[arcFlash]

We open a second hole only to dive a second site so no closer then double the working length. If we set two holes they have to be more than double or you could tangle the two lines.

If you mean a rescue hole, no. I can't see that helping. If you could see the diver below a vent or something, maybe but any diver with a compass could swim to him before you could open a hole and pull him out.

It's actually quite bright and you normally don't need a light. With the vis averaging 30 or more, a lot of light gets to 60 feet.

[mattd]

I think he was talking about a strobe to use as a locator beacon for the hole - just in case you have to cut the line or something.

[Shooter]

I welcome all comments and suggestions from divers of all skill levels. However ........... you need to have at least tried it once before giving advice. Training is usually helpful as well ;D.

as far as the coloration on the line, it is the NAUI ice diving standards. It is what I was taught and it is what we dive on our public safety dive Team. We also write it on the color, on the rope, and on the bucket for color blind people and those who have  not had the premium training standards that NAUI provides  ;D

[arcFlash]

So Shooter, is there anything left in Green Lake for us to hunt? I'd walk out and set up on that sand bar again. Unless you and friends picked it clean.

We're looking for a day dive on the 26 or 27th.

[Shooter]

are you referring to the current world record, anchor gathering ice dive  8) ? I haven't been there since we dove it last. I know the island where the sunken boat is has been pretty picked over. Still a really cool dive though. If I remember correctly, that sand bar extends out quite a way and we just scratched the surface on it. I don't think you'll have to worry about walking out. On rush Lake there is already plow trucks out clearing roads!!! 10 inches of good clear ice. Worst case scenario we could always tow The trailer out with the four wheeler but I don't think it will be necessary. I will do a little more Intel on green.






sorry about the choppy camerawork but it was one of the first dives of the season and I was a little over excited about arts discovery

[arcFlash]

Dave and I tried Green on a very cold day and got nothing. So the ground tackle must be farther out. I lost that GPS number but I probably have the second site.

So do you think your free to dive that weekend?