Ice Diving

[grumpie]

One of the local SO has two newly certify. ice divers today. the weather was great and everybody had a good time, including the instructor. they did classroom and pool the first of week and the openwater ( almost ) today.

[grumpie]

Next week I have a class also for another SO also, I hope it goes as well.

[grumpie]

Here is a scenarios, we have a ice fisherman out on the ice and he falls through.
the ice is very honeycombed and generally poor. the hole where he fell through is about 100 feet out from shore, there is 30 feet of open water between shore and ice.
What would you do to reach him if he is still on the surface and alive?
What would you do to recover him if he is under the ice?
Remember Risk- Benfit when doing this.
grumpie

[DiverQueen]

Contact your local FD with either an airboat or float sled.  These are devices that are designed to go across Ice or Open Water.  If neither of these are available, how quick can you get the motor off the Zodiac.  Get three team members geared up in drysuits and life vests and send them out tethered to the Zodiac and a line from that to shore.  If they fall through they can use the boat to pull each other out.  It can double as a stretcher for the hypothermia victim on the return trip.  Hypothermia victims are very fragile in the cardiac respect.  Don't jostle them or they will spontaneously have a heart attack!

[BioDiver]

How did the angler get onto the ice if there is 30 feet of open water along the shore? The answer to this question can provide a route for rescuers.

Banana boat would be ideal for either a rescue or recovery situation.

[Hydro]

this same thing happened to about 100 ice fishermen on one of the great lakes this winter... ice cracked and floated away from shore, i dont recall if anyone fell in tho

[tullibee]

first - get someone on the phone to 911
take a quick inventory - what do you have available to help?  try to find something floaty quick to throw them to help keep afloat if clinging to the edge
always remember that "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few (or one)" so don't make it a 2 victim scenario by trying something stupid!
is there a boat (preferably something more stable than a canoe, but if that's all you got, OK) 
any throw ropes? 
how about any ladders? (help spread your weight out on crappy ice, can also use one to extend to victim and pull them out and give them a climbing route)
anybody have a convenient labrador you can tie a rope to and throw a retreiving dummy out on the ice?  (silly idea, but a well trained dog could be sent out to one side of the hole and directed back to the other side - thus potentially looping the victim)
look to the sides - does the 30' of open water extend in both directions or is there maybe close access to the ice one way or the other?
DQs advice on suiting up and pushing the Zodiac is good, but I wouldn't bother taking the time to yank the motor - it would be more effort to drag, but I think the time savings would be the better offset.

DQ - didn't realize the hypothermia/CA risk was as great as that - knew it was possible, but didn't know about being that gentle!  guess the strain on the heart would make it more likely?

[Firecaptn15]

From a Fire Dept Standpoint, while waiting for the Airboat and Mustang Suits to arrive we usually try ropes and ladders where possible. Alot depends on the person in the water and how calm and aware they are. If the ice is that bad we would probably not attempt to go on the ice ourselves (no sense in creating more victims)

In regards to hypothermia yes jostling a person can put them into cardiac arrest but hey thats what Paramedics / Hospitals are for. It is more important to get the person out before you worry about that.

[MAXFACTOR]

What would you do to reach him if he is still on the surface and alive?ANSWER,   
1.  CALL 911
2   TELL HIM TO BE CALM
3.  HAVE PERSON MOVE BACK AWAY FROM THE EDGE OF ICE.   AND SPREAD HIS WEIGHT. 
4.  THROW A SAFETY RING PAST HIM OVER HIS HEAD ETC.
5.  ASSUME YOU REACH HIM WITH SAFETY RING, LINE ETC.  TELL HIM TO SECURE  IT TO HIS BODY IN THE APPROPRIATE WAY.
6.  CONTINUE TO WAIT UNTIL HELP GETS THERE.    do not attempt rescue UNTIL FURTHER HELP.  HOWEVER EVERY SITUATION IS (  SDP ) 
7.  PREPARE VICTIM FOR POSSIBLE SCENARIOS.  "COMMUNICATE WHAT IF SITUATIONS
8.  IDEALLY LIKE OTHERS HAVE SAID, AIR BOAT, BOAT OF SOME KIND, 
9.  Perfect Safe Rescue and recovery.   
10.  Take the guys catch of the day and eat it.

underwater... entirely different story. will complete Tomorrow..   having dinner at Murrays with clients at 6:00  must leave for now.
MAXFACTOR   


Well, I've been busy...   sorry it took so long to get back to this...

The key word here is RECOVERY.



RECOVERY, (That Word)  …. in and of itself should tell you that this is NO LONGER AN EMERGENCY and is now a much more controlled  process for the PROFESSIONALS TO DO.


Unless I just saw or some other person just witnessed the person slip under the ice this is what I would do.   THIS IS ANOTHER TOPIC IN AND OF ITSELF.


This is what I would do.   
TAKE CHARGE OF THE SCENE  unless and until someone in authority relieves you.
1. Immediately call 911.   BE AS CALM AS YOU CAN…. DO NOT HANG UP UNTIL 911 operator says its ok.  You may be on hold for a bit, while he or she is dispatching help to the scene do not interpet silence as though you are not connected.  Give her your name and telephone #   answer every question she has regardless of whether you think its important or not.
2. Give professional the best description of your location that you can.  IE: North end of Bass Lake in the City of _________  ; (remember there are a lot of “Bass Lakes in Minnesota) and your call may actually be going to HIGHWAY PATROL OFFICER in another County,  continue….. directly behind the house located at 123 main st.;  in ____ CITY.    About 100 feet from the shore line. 
3. Note time of first information which lead you to believe someone is under the ice.
4. Send a helper to the road to direct EMERGENCY PERSONNEL to your location
5. Get best information:
a. note location   REMEMBER... if one guy feel through another one can too.  Grumpy said the ice was honeycombed,....  do not go out on ice.   if you are on the ice, I would mark it, and leave.
b. triangulate the area
c. permanently mark the direction of the last known location  (stick,   line in snow, etc.)    Make as many observations as you can.  writing them down, because you will forget.....  believe me....
d. look for tell tale signs of possible location :  ie  hat or clothing on water, ice /fishing tackle with no fisherman,   whole in the ice,  dog over whole looking at water,  splashing,  car on ice with no one around etc.  (wife clapping over hole….that’s what mine would have done ( lil.  stinker.)   

6. Secure names & telephone #’s of witness’s….   instruct them that they cannot leave the area, until professionals talk with them.
7. Get as much information as you can.  Write everything down.  NO MATTER HOW TRIVIAL IT MAY SEEM TO YOU…   It may be very important information to the PROFESSIONALS.
8. I WOULD NOT ATTEMPT RECOVERY…….even though I have been rescue trained, and have already saved at least one person from possible death, IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT…...  The professionals are trained for this kind of recovery.  And who knows’ maybe it wasn’t an accident,  this may end up being a crime scene. 
9. UPON ARRIVAL From Sheriff’s office, or Police, Fire Rescue personnel, turn over all the information you have.   COOPERATE… FULLY..  DO NOT TRY TO CONTINUE TO RUN THE SCENE.   YOUR JOB IS OVER.. 
10. You can offer your assistance, but remember that the professionals are now in charge and you should not be offended if they tell you to step aside and you should just reside yourself to a job well done.   
11. DO NOT TALK TO MEDIA…..   Let the professionals do that.   You wouldn’t want to say the guys name, until the next of kin was notified first. Etc. 
12. THEN…. When this is all over…  be sure to call the teacher/dive instructor who taught you how to handle an emergency situation.  Call the dive shop and thank them.. etc.     
Be sure to secure and take the guys catch of the day!


ask for a copy of all your notes from the AUTHORITIES, and then without using them as a template,  when you get home,  rewrite the entire situation, to the best of your memory, then reflect with your notes.  KEEP A COPY OF EVERYTHING....  authories may need it or you to testify in the future. etc.
Thats a good start.... but I'm sure there are some other things I will think about later.  EVERYONE..... feel free to add, delete, or make any comments.. 

MAXFACTOR

[MAXFACTOR]

Thanks Grumpie for the kind words and the training and thought provocation that you do for us.  It makes us all think a little more about what if scenario's. 

As I was walking around Lake Calhoun on Sunday, I was looking at the kids on the side of wall, playing with the thin ice by the band shell.  I can't believe parents let them do that when there is some open water, and very very thin ice. 

I guess you guys will still have to do another recovery there someday too.

Maxfactor