I don't have a calculator that goes to 25 Billion!

[freedivernd]

Sorry,, have to vent.. what's with this?  I don't know how many or who of you are tied into the auto industry.. maybe we all are to some degree, but I'll be P.O.'d if this bailout goes through.. and that seems to be the general consensus at the round table I frequent.  I asked my wife to find me a calculator that goes to 700billion so I can start doing some of my own math on this crap.

Fred
(have .22 and can always eat rabbit or squirrel.... or fish)

P.S. I mean no disrespect or nothin'.. it's just how I'm feeling this a.m... maybe got up to friggen early.. it couldn't be the wine from last night talking.. geez, it was only 1 glass..  but hey, I feel better.  have to look on the bright side.. I got up early to go and try and get that deer that's been waiting in the woods for me....

how are the rest of you doin?

[arcFlash]

A lot of people are upset about all the bailouts but I flip flop on it. GM has so much fixed cost that the only cars with enough margin to carry the load was the SUV. One report said GM made $10,000 on each one. So the only way to make money was to sell big cars (that people couldn't get enough of). The other fight is with labor and the size of the company and that's always a bad deal for workers and pensioners. They have had 10 years or more to get this right and somehow they produce bad cars and can't make money so I don't have any sympathy but yet I don't want them to take down what little economy we have left. Housing, finance and auto, we can't lose all three in a year.

I don't think anyone really wants to bail anyone out but no one wants it to effect their life ether. It's like a roommate spends all the rent fixing up the place. It's great for you in the short run but now he's getting evicted and that means you have to go as well. Do you bail him out and pay 'your' rent? Even if you kick him out you still had to bail him out to save youself. If you don't pay you get sued back rent + fees, have to get a new place if you can pass a credit check, pay first and last and rent a truck. So how is that better?

Maybe that's a lousy example but a deflationary economy means a lot of people have to lose their jobs and it's very hard to get out of. I don't want to lose my job next year just to make GM suffer today.

I disagree with any handout but at the same time I see these issues getting closer to my front door. As it is, it's unlikely we can sell our current houses or qualify for new mortgages.

[grumpie]

I would hate to have to get a job so that I could stay retired. I could teach scuba, if I could find a shop still in business........
grumpie.
maybe denny hacker would let me use one one of his dealerships that are closed. plug all the holes and flood the place and use it for a swimming pool.

[NorthlandDivers]

There are a lot of shops in the Twin Cities Metro that are still in business.  The list of dive shops on this site could use an updating though.

Don't forget with Christmas coming to visit your local dive store.

Back to the $25 Billion they always want to bail out the BIG BOYS but, forget about all the small business's that are out there.  We of course don't have the lobbyists or the private jets to fly out to Washington and BEG for money.

[aknelsonone]

I guess Pelosi got it to the Point :... do your home work, show a plan.. then we can show some money..

Personally It seems Big Auto and the Unions need to adjust expectations to reality.
If this does not make sense to them let em go bust.

Phoenix will emerge from the ashes ...and it will be better.

Andy

[AandA]

What can I say..... I agree with Steve (Arcflash)  : :'(

[DiverQueen]

....But the Phoenix was a Pontiac, made by GM and they were one of the first to start asking for bail outs! 

We're starting to look for something to replace my (15 MPG on E-85 - 19 MPG on Gas!) Dodge Grand Caravan.  Right now, Hyundai is looking pretty good.  Where else can you get a car for $9000. new with most of the bells and whistles!  I'd be happy with something that has auto windows and air conditioning!  I've missed those the most!  :

And Fred, good luck with the .22, buy ammo with cash, not credit cards!  Just remember, how much personal information the government gets when you buy a weapon!~

They don't take that kind of info if you buy a bow or crossbow....And you can re-use the arrows! 

[jasondbaker]

One TV pundit recently described the auto manufacturers as "pension funds that just happen to make cars".  I thought that was a perfect summary.  The fact is that these companies cannot remain competitive while maintaining current labor contracts and benefit programs.  Can't happen period. 

[arcFlash]

A lawyer friend of mine told me a long time ago while sitting around a fire arguing about some current event. He said, "Steve, it's got nothing to do with 'right and wrong', it's about 'can you or can't you'. At the time I didn't see the brilliance in this thinking but over the years I understand a lot more a lot faster because of it.

Since then I see the world as can and can't and GM CAN ask for money and the GOV CAN give it to them. See that make sense. It's not right but that's never one of the rules.

This also explains all the corruption... they can.

[mcdiver]

I do not agree with the bailout persa, however, by not bailing these guys out, we would end up worse-off.  Part of the reason is the "trickle down affect."  By allowing these companies to go bankrupt and layoff ten's of thousand employees would be devistating, for this not only would include those employees that work for the "Big 3," but all the little guys who support the automakers, such as the suppliers for their transmissions, engines, etc. etc., this alone could easily top a hundered thousand layoffs.

In St. Cloud, a foundary that makes the casings for the GM transmissions and differentials recently layed-off 25% of their workforce, sad part is, it is not over.  GM called them on Thursday and canceled all orders for December, so the foundry sent everyone home 2 days early.  The foundry was shutting down this week for their annual maintenance anyway, so that helped, but what happens the following week?

This problem is so huge that it is only the "tip of the iceberg."  It is the "trickle down affect" that would really hurt the American economy, Damned if I do, Damned if I don't.