Torpedo DPV

[arcFlash]

I've been thinking of a scooter and read the back post....

I see the X-scooter is something like $3,800 but doesn't give a huge performance improvement over the Torpedo if you only look at the numbers. That is 2 mph and 60 minutes burn time. X-scooter is 600' and Torpedo is only 170' but that's still inside my limit. Torpedo list 88 minutes and 2mph but not thrust. X list 60lb. I used a torpedo (1800?) last summer in Superior and I enjoyed everything but the burn time. I got a solid 35 minutes and then it started to feel weak so I stayed close for fear I would have to swim back towing it. I probably got 45 minutes and the battery may not have been new and topped off.

The Torpedo is only $900 so it's the leader right now but the one thing is a tow strap. I don't want to have to hold on with both hands. I had little trouble steering with the one trigger hand.

My question, what am I not seeing with the X-scooter, SS or Gavin to justify the price? I mean 3,000 for the ability to run 2 or more batteries and a cool handle?

Also, Anyone in town sell torpedo's or is it all mail order? I'd rather buy local.

[LKunze]

Perhaps John J could answer your questions as he has an X-Scooter.  I got a chance to see his at last years GLSPS DIP show and it was nice.  I've looked at scooters some myself over the past couple years and have had a chance on a couple of occasions to try the Torpedo.  I found the lack of handles, excessive weight of the scooter, length and the magnetic switch to be cons.  Build quality is not in the same league as the X either but then again it's really an apples to oranges comparison.  The X is made to handle tech diving and extreme dives. If you have the money to spend and/or are looking at doing tech dives with the scooter I'd take a hard look at the X-Scooter or the SS N-19. If I were looking for a mid priced scooter for doing more recreational dives or even deco dives in the 150 foot or less range I'd probably look hard at the Oceanic Mako. I've seen several used Makos sell on the DecoStop in the $1000 to $1500 price range.  They have a pretty solid reputation judging by the many posts and reviews on that forum.  They also have a max depth rating of 180' and a 40 to 120 minute run time depending on speed.  You may want to check with Tammy over at Diversions SCUBA in Madison as she had a used Mako posted for sale last year.  Probably long since sold but might be worth checking on anyway.

[LKunze]

I believe SD&T carries the Torpedo's.  They've rented them and had used one's for sale in the past.

[Kirk]

I know it is a lot of money, but I really like my Silent Submersion (UV-26, a heavy beast).  I had a choice of getting the scooter, or a more reliable vehicle.  A couple years ago I picked the scooter (then of course my pickup truck died). 

Rather than a Torpedo, if you don’t want to spend a ton of money, I would look for a used Mako or Tekna.  You could probably find them used for about the same price as a new Torpedo (I’ve seen them for sale for about $900 or a thousand dollars).  Silent Submersions and Gavins are essentially Makos with rewound motors, I think a different clutch assembly, battery assembly slid into a chunk of sewer pipe, with a delrin nose cover (and in the case of Silent Submersion, a redesigned handle / motorcycle-like trigger assembly).  I’m not sure about the X-scooter, for I’ve never used one, and don’t know if it starts with a Mako motor, but it does have an interesting variable speed mechanism and aluminum hull, both qualities of the Farallon scooters (which are also really nice dpvs).

I’m not sure about the performance specifications, but suspect that a Torpedo would be considerably slower than a Silent Submersion, Gavin, or X-scooter, and likely slower compared to a Mako or Tekna.  I know, for instance, that when Rodney, the maker of Silent Submersion, wrote up the performance specs for his scooters, he did so assuming double LP 104s, with an aluminum 80 stage bottle, which of course, is a fair amount of drag in the water.

If you do choose to go with a Torpedo, I agree with Lonnie, you might want to check with Scuba Dive and Travel over on the Southside of town to see if they still carry it.  When Rich Dreher owned the store, he had a bunch of them.  Though, there may be a reason he, last he told me, became a Silent Submersion dealer, and he sells (or sold) Silent Submersion scooters at a pretty good price (well at least the best price without a nudge-nudge, wink-wink agreement), essentially list price, with no tax (since he is shipping from Florida) and free shipping (he takes that out of his profit to be competitive, and I guess Rodney is pretty strict about discounting his suggested retail price). - Kirk

[jpreston]

I own a Gavin and one of the people in our group has a X, both are great scooters and I would also recommend the SS. One point everyone seems stuck on is how fast a certain scooter can go, in reality and in any diving you don't need to go full bore. Even at half speed you can cover a great distance and the charge will last longer than at full speed as well as being able to respond to certain situations on a dive.

If you are going to buy a scooter I strongly recommend spending the money wisely and getting something that will last & resale easier if that comes up.

John P.

[arcFlash]

So why do I see Mako's with 2 pvc tubes clamped to the front? Too nose heavy?

If the Mako can go 120 is that two good dives or one great and one slow, ending in towing a dead scooter? Basically, can you tell it's going to die?

Honestly, I forgot about Mako, that many people can't be wrong.
Is buying new just overpaying? I kind of like warranty and knowing the history.

It's mostly rec diving. You know the kind, long sand dive to get to the interesting stuff. A classic would be lapping the pits at Crosby or cruising shoreline in Superior. I'd like a nice slow tow so burn time is #1 for me.

The Torpedo 1800 with twins moved plenty fast but at one speed and 45 minutes that's one dive and I didn't like the twin handle and no tow strap. I'd need 2 or 3 batteries and that's a drag...

Thanks everyone

[LKunze]

Tow straps are easy to add, all you need is some good line and a bolt snap to hook to the scooter ring on your webbing harness.  That's how the Torpedo that I tried was rigged.  Your only options for real long burn times are going to be with a full size Gavin, full size SS, a long body X-Scooter with 2 NiMH packs, or an X-Scooter with the uber-expensive Lithium Ion battery back.  The X-Scooter does not use a Mako Motor, it uses a brushless motor and has on the fly 5-speed trigger shifting.  After speaking with John today at the show he said he's getting about 40 minute burn time with the standard single NiMH X-Scooter.  The full size scooters will go all the way around Wazee on one battery but they weigh a LOT.  You are talking under 40 pounds for the X-Scooter vs. over 70 pounds for a full size scooter...OUCH! :o I wouldn't want to be hiking one of those down to the Madeira.

[arcFlash]

So if it's still going to be 40 minutes then I might as well go for the Torpedo and save the cash. If I lose resale I still saved 3,000 up front.

I have to carry 2 battery's ether way, I might as well carry one at a time and just change it out then lug two. If it was more like $500 or $1000 more for the X-scooter it would be an easy sell but 3800 just doesn't make cents.

I'll shop used and see if I can find something otherwise I think I can live with a Torpedo. I enjoyed the one I use and if the burn time isn't that much different I can't see an advantage. (I read up on variable pitch props and all that this morning. It's nice but I don't need that today)

[ScubaAl]

I pickup a used Mako last fall for $1250. rewound motor, and 3 batteries. Its in excellent condition.  One of the batteries only gave about a 20min runtime. So I pickup one new set online.
The Mako is only rated to 180' but I think there is a modification that can be done to the nose section to increase the depth some.
On the new set of batteries I think I had a runtime of 45-50min before I got too cold and went in. This was late fall at Wazee. So I'm hoping to get up to 60min on them.
When I went out with the scooter I just carried 2 sets of batteries and switched during my surface interval, no big deal.
Once spring rolls around I get to using it again. To say I need practice would be an understatement.
Al,
From sunny and warm Florida, at least till friday. 

[john j]

There have been some good comments already.  Allow me to add my opinions to the lot.

The torpedo is designed for the recreational market, the Silent Submersions and X-scooter are designed for more demanding applications.  Keep that in mind when comparing them.  If the run time and depth limits for the torpedo will cover your application, then it is very hard to justify buying a more expensive scooter.  However, if you want extended run times or if you are doing very deep dives, the torpedo is not going to cut it.

Now, I'll rant a little bit....
One thing I don't like about the torpedo, is that it is not intended for use with a tow strap.  Sure, you can add one, but it is not designed for that setup and it will not perform as well (steering and comfort) as a scooter that is intended for tow strap use.  A tow strap is great for long scootering applications because it keeps your arms from getting tired.  It also allows you to operate the scooter with one hand so you can hold a light in the other hand.  I'm not sure how you would run the torpedo on a night dive or in dark water (deep or cave dive).  I'm not saying you can't do that, but it would not be as good as a handle type scooter for that kind of dive.

Another thing I don't like about the torpedo is the magnetic strap you have to wear on your hand to run the thing.   The scooter activates when a magnet is placed on the handle.  You have to wear a special magnet strapped to your hand and when you grab the handle, the scooter turns on.   I've got enough crap strapped to me already when I dive and I don't want anything else.  Some people really like the magnet strap switch idea and I can understand that.  For my application however, it would not be a good choice.  Additionally, when I'm scootering in very cold water, I find that the hand that is operating the scooter gets very cold, so I like to switch hands once in a while and tuck the cold hand behind my butt and allow it to warm up a bit.  Can't do that on the torpedo.  For me, that's a big deal, but for others perhaps not. 

Also, the torpedo is negatively buoyant.  Perhaps, that's fine for recreational use because you can set it down on the bottom when you aren't using it and then pick it up later if it hasn't drifted away or been stolen.  If you ever have to stow and swim with your scooter, having it negatively buoyant will cause you misery.  With the x-scooter and Silent Submersions, you can stow them behind you.  You clip a line from the front of the scooter to your waist strap, then push the scooter between your legs and up behind your butt.  As you swim, it follows behind you, out of the way.  That only works when a scooter is slightly positively buoyant.  A negative scooter won't work well for that. 

My intent is not to trash the torpedo and I'm not saying it is a bad product.   It seems like a decent scooter for it's application (recreational diving) and the price is much lower than the high end scooters.  Price does matter. 

If you need longer run times or a scooter that can be used very deep, you have to go with something else and then the cost goes up.  If the torpedo fits your need, go for it.

Regarding the X scooters versus the SS scooters, I'd sum it up like this.  The X's are smaller and lighter than comparable SS scooters, but the X's are a little slower and have less run time.  The strength of the X's is high performance to size ratio.  The SS's are bigger and heavier, but you get more speed and runtime.  I own an x-scooter, but the SS NS-19 is perhaps a better way to go than a single battery x-scooter.  It's only a little bigger, but you get more speed and run time.  If you have the ability to poop gold coins, then you could afford the lithium ion battery for the single battery x-scooter and get a very long run time from a small scooter.  The battery alone is $1600, but it would be fantastic to have.

Also, I would reduce any runtime quoted  by a  manufacturer by at least 10%.