KISS Opinions

[DanL]

Chuck N and Deep Wreck have commented on the KISS.  Anyone else with experience, comments? John J?
Totally new to thinking about rebreathers, so some questions.
- Metering orifice/manual PO2 trim seems fine.  What are some reasons, other than convenience of "autopilot", that SO many choose Inspiration, etc with autopilot?
- How complex is controlling PO2 while descending, ascending as diluent is added, gas is vented?
- Is the manual O2 adjust mechanism really really reliable?  can it be bumped, adjusted inadvertently?  is there a backup other than going OC?
- Training - time, cost?
- Approx cost with KISS, tanks, regs, sensors, other reqd stuff (have plate, wing)
- anybody have a  pre/during/post-use checklist they use that would give a good picture of how the unit is used?
- Would like to focus on merits/discussion of the KISS unit - not others and not pro/con vs OC.
Thanks,
Dan

[CCRDIVER]

Well then, Im the person to talk to.  I not only have a Kiss but Im looking to sell one too. 
The advantage of diving a Kiss is the metered orphis.  The constant addition of 02 is what makes the kiss so easy to dive with.  As the first stage is blanked out, meaning that so long as you don't go deeper than 330 feet the orphis is going to add 02 at just below your medibalic rate.  I have mine set for around .7 liters per minuite.  This makes diving the unit awsome because I only have to add 02 on decent, and accent or after about 20 min at depth.  What happens is the 02 gets used up as you breath, and the orphic is adding constantly, so you only have to monitor your 02 displays for the changes that occur during accent, decent, and work load. 

I love closed circut becuase you have more bailout options than OC.  For example, your system fails, you can go semi closed, you can add gas from you bailout tanks, you can breath off your onboard tank, and you can go totally oc.  You have more options than oc can give you in the same kind of dive. 

The Kiss unit has counter lungs that are on your back, this is not a problem for breathing, and keeps the clutter in front clean.  The 02 sensors need to be changed every year, even though they are good for 18 months.  The cost of diving is your sorb (chemical to scrub out c02) and your tank fills.  To give you an idea I normally do 2 or 3 dives to around 200 to 250 feet with run times between 1 hour and 2hours each on one set of tanks, (thats one dil tank and one 02 tank 19cf). 

The chemical is rated for 3 hours, and for deep dives you want fresh sorb in.  I normally do 2 long deep dives before I change my sorb.  everyone says sorb is cheap you life is not.  And that true. 

What else do you what to know. 

[DanL]

deep wreck -
I'll PM my phone  - give me  a call

[Chuck_Northrup]

Dan,

Unfortunately if you are looking for opinions on the KISS from someone other than DEEP WRECK or myself from the local area you may be dissapointed.  Other than Ron Benson there are no other divers in the area (to my knowledge) that are diving the KISS  :-\

I would be happy to answer any questions you have, but it seems like you are looking for more "unbiased" opinions.  A great resource for you to check out would be you can talk to divers from all over the globe about the "pros and cons" 

Good luck with your search!

CN3

[ghosch]

I hope that's not really what you intended to say  ???

So why the change to ECCR?

[rcojr]

Ghosch
He would be better off with your used Inspiration.
Same money more machine.
Bob

[ghosch]

I agree of course, but coming from me it's somewhat self-serving!

[john j]

I'll say first that I have never dived with the KISS unit and I have little other experience with it.  If you want to ignore my comments based on that, I would understand.

I am not biased against the KISS nor am I biased for the Inspiration.  I am basing my comments below from facts from my experience and from information that is distributed.

I use an Inspiration Classic CCR.  Before I bought it, I looked and several units that were available at the time.  I choose the Inspiration because it had the most capability per unit dollar at the time, and I think it still does today.

I do know that the KISS is a good quality unit (manufacturing, materials and quality control are good).  Gordon (the designer) was a brilliant person and everything I have purchased from him (booster pumps) was top quality.

When I buy diving equipment I am always thinking far into the future and how the equipment may serve me as my experience level and needs grow.   When I was an OC diver, I spent lots of money on nice stuff that worked fine for what I was doing then, but my experience and needs kept growing.  This happened over and over again and the total cost of all that stuff was huge.  I now have boxes full of gear that I don't use anymore.

In purchasing a CCR, I would suggest buying the unit with the maximum capability that you can afford.  For example, perhaps today you have no plans for really deep dives or lots of trimix usage, etc.  But once you get a CCR, you may find that those kinds of dives become more appealing to you (if they aren't already).

My opinion is that you get more capability per unit dollar with the Inspiration than you do with the KISS.  I don't think the Inspiration is necessarily better or worse quality than the KISS and each unit has some good points and bad points.  If used within its designed depth ranges and capabilities, the KISS is a very good unit from what I have seen.

One strong pro-Inspiration argument is that there are something like 5000 Inspirations out there.  That means parts, service and training are widely available and 10 years from now, they will still be available.  The Inspiration is by far the most widely distributed CCR.  The KISS is much less common.  You can think about reasons why that is the case.

The Inspiration is rated for deeper dives and longer scrubber duration than the KISS.  The KISS is rated to 250 max depth.  Are there people going deeper than that?  Absolutely.  The KISS has a 2.5 hour scrubber duration rating.  Are there people pushing that?  Absolutely, but there are reasons for these rules and you break them at your own risk.  I used to break scrubber rules all the time but now that I have seen with great detail how they are derived, I do not break them anymore. 

The Inspiration is rated to 300 feet and 3 hours of scrubber duration, so by design, it has more capability than the KISS for deep and long dives.  That doesn't mean the KISS is not a good unit, just doesn't have the same design specifications.

Training costs are going to be about the same.  Costs of the units themselves, probably a bit less expensive for the KISS, but not a huge difference.  Don't forget to add up all the costs, not just the base price of the unit with no tanks.

I think the very basic Inspiration classic model is the way to go.  I don't even use an auto diluent valve mine-just the minimum features.  If you compare costs between units, make sure you are comparing units with the same kinds of options.  For example, don't comapre a fully loaded Evolution with a KISS expecting that they have the same functions.   You can add lots of fancy stuff to an Inspiration if you want and that makes the cost go way up.

I suggest you make a list of everything that is important to you about a CCR, and sort the list into "must have", "nice to have", "less important" items.  Use this to compare all the CCR's you are interested in.  This way you can use facts to make your decision, not just a good or bad feeling.  You can also try each unit, but doing one dive in a pool on a CCR, really does nothing to teach you about the capability or comfort of any CCR.  My first several CCR dives were awful.  Now I couldn't live without it.

I have a booklet that I wrote with lots of information on the Inspiration CCR that I would be glad to email to you if you want.  It's not a sales pitch or anything like that, just a look at some facts about the Inspiration.  I wrote it to help people in situations just like you.  It is a confusing mess looking at all the information out there when trying to decide which CCR to purchase.  Everyone thinks theirs is the best and if you have little CCR experience it's hard to sort it all out.  If you would like one, email me at janzen_john@hotmail.com and I'll send one out.

[CCRDIVER]

I hope that's not really what you intended to say  ???

So why the change to ECCR?


[/quote]

You caught me!!
Yes I mis typed.  On the Kiss you only have to add 02 if you are accending, decending or working beyond your choosen flow rate.  Which for me is around 20 min at depth.  To clarify the Kiss is rated for 3 hours. 

[CCRDIVER]

Just a follow up from my last post.  What I have found is that no matter what unit we happen to be talking about everyone has different views.  Most people only know one unit, and don't have much or any experience with other units.  Because of this the questions of what CCR works best will always be diased.  Im not discounting your thoughts John, I have only dove the Kiss, and havent had more than one dive on the Inspiration, and thats not enought to say one way or the other.  You are right though, in the fact that most people think they will never go deeper.