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06-22-2003, 04:42 PM,

I still can't believe people are making such a fuss about O2 cleaning. I found this on another forum, which I thought would put things a bit in perspective (or at least have a good laugh) Wink

Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 08:56:50 -0400
From: "Erik C. Schmidt" <eschmidt@inetw.net>
Organization: University of Florida
Subject: O2 Cleaning Comedy

There I was, doing my deco at Ginnie the other night, when my mask began to leak - again - and I realized that I had forgotten to shave before the dive. And then luckily I started thinking about the O2 cleaning debate before I cleared my mask.....

As the water level inside my mask rose I thought about the fact that I was breathing 100% O2 and that my exhaled breath was certainly pretty close to 100% O2 as well.

As the water level continued to rise I went on to think that I would be displacing the water in the mask with my breath and therefore filling my mask with nearly 100% O2!

As the water level passed the halfway mark inside my mask I realized that I had forgotten to wear my O2 clean mask - you know, the one with the Viton skirt. What was I going to do? I had almost 30 minutes of deco left. Did I want to suffer through a face full of water for 30 minutes or risk blowing my head off by filling my mask with O2?!?

Then the mask was almost full of water as I realized that I had
forgotten the covers for my teeth. You know, the caps to cover my metal fillings so that there is no chance of a spark inside my mouth with the O2 present (Lucky for me I don't have braces or O2 deco would be out of the question!). Well, I had survived so far with those fillings exposed so I decided to be a daredevil, to take a real chance, and clear my mask.....

As I started to exhale through my nose I saw a strange flash of light! Did I just explode? Did my mask go into meltdown?!? Nope. The water gurgled harmlessly from the mask as I found my light shining directly up into my face from where it was clipped to my harness. I had stared certain death in the face once more and survived. Such is the life of a cave diver.

The moral of the story? Well, more of a question than a moral... For all of you that are really anal about O2 cleaning - what do you do about your masks since they would be exposed to nearly the same O2 environment as the inside of your tank or your deco regs? Hadn't thought about that
one? Gonna' call TUSA and demand that they start producing an O2 compatible mask with a Viton skirt? Gonna' visit the dentist and have all your fillings changed to a non-metallic type? I really am curious. Please advise the list as to how we should handle this potential hazard.

TIA

-Erik

mixelpix · 06-22-2003, 06:38 PM,

If I remember my intro to nitrox training, weren't the labels intended primarily for the dive shop/tank fill station staff? Isn't the risk associated with elevated O2 explosions most likely to occur duing the fill? I though the risk was of "potential" explosion due to blending pure O2 with the other other gases directly in the tank and not so much associated with pre-mix filling.

Being a relative novice to diving I do find these discussions very imformative but also similar to discussing politics or religion.

tcjtn0 · 06-22-2003, 09:25 PM,

DRE: I am still laughing!!! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THAT POST!! Nuff said about being serious all the time.

Jean ;D

**freedivernd** · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2003, 04:42 AM by freedivernd.)

Given the more recent posts of FantaSea Scuba and Travel and Jason B. that tend to quell the fires a bit, and the humorous post by Dre that really gave me something to think about I wanted to post in kind, on behalf of Tri-State Diving (because I know from conversations months prior to this event that the owner, Gary, does not enjoy posting on bulletin boards and has only recently posted anything because of my encouragement one day at the shop awhile backâ¦ Gary does run a stand up shop, a safe shop, and a by the rules shop and I have had nothing but positives from there as Iâm sure is the case of many other customers. (o.k., sure, it helps that his shop was one of the first that gratefully accepted me as a free diver and fellow diver, because granted, I donât bring a lot of business to a scuba shop)
In conversing with Gary on this forum topic he has forwarded me the following response from an inquiry he sent to PSI to respond to previous posts concerning this topic, I have only deleted the leading paragraghs about PSIâs quote âpolicy not to directly participate in web forumsâ end quoteâ¦.and some other non-essential introductory/summary paragraphs that I deemed unnecessary (you'll have to take my word on that). After reading this, I wondered why PSI didnât respond on their own but I would imagine theyâd be on the computers all the time trying to keep up with us.. So, Iâm taking the liberty to upload it to and I encourage those that have been following this thread to give it a read as it is in direct response to questions or âwonderingsâ or beliefs to several of the posts and eventually does a good job answering some questions concerning legalities, DOT specs, safety issues, and the legitimacy of PSI, and yes, I did leave in some of their slams for good measure Wink

.
Not to say that the situation with the tanks could or couldnât have been handled better with a good result for both customer and dive shop. I waited for Gary to respond but I sort a knew it wasnât going to happen. Plus, this kinda happened in my back yard and among friends of mine so I felt a bit bad for ALL involved as I am one to be happy to have 2 dive shops now located in the D.L. area as well as the dive shops in the Fargo/Moorhead area as it can ONLY be good for those of us on this side of the sales desk, the customer.

Friendly Freediving Fanatic Forever (FFFF for short)
Fred (FFFFF for short)

LKunze · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2003, 07:33 AM by LKunze.)

LKunze: 6/17 at 3:11 pm: "since there is only one shop in the state you can't get air put into a tank with a nitrox sticker on it." PSI: "this is not true, there are many more."

Hmm....really. I'd like to know where because I've been to the majority of shops in MN and never been refused an air fill except at Tri-State Diving. ???

***jasondbaker*** · (This post was last modified: 06-25-2003, 12:41 PM by jasondbaker.)

Fred, thanks for soliciting an opinion from PSI.

Corey (PSI), thanks for responding. While I appreciate your response I question your somewhat negative view regarding Internet forums. Hundreds of MN, WI, and ND divers and most regional diveshops participate on the mnscuba.com forum. We are not a typical forum. We represent some of the most active and probably most âawareâ divers in the area.

I started this thread because I was genuinely interested in finding out the answer to the question: Can you put air in a tank with a nitrox sticker on it? I believe the responses have been inquisitive, humorous, fair, opinionated, and in some cases inaccurate. But in every debate you have to take the reasonable and the unreasonable, and hopefully learn to recognize the difference. I would be hard pressed to characterize any of the thread replies as vicious. Corey, you may be personalizing these responses a bit. Look at this as an opportunity to educate. The information in this forum is more visible to MN divers than the information on the PSI website.

PSI has positioned itself as an authority on SCUBA and SCBA and actively participates in public policy decisions. I think that makes PSIâs policies fair game for open debate.

While the opportunity to take a PSI course sounds inviting, I donât think that provides the proper forum for an open debate regarding PSI policy. The teacher-student relationship within a class does not facilitate this type of discussion. The mnscuba.com forum provides the optimal technology and location for debate.

I read and re-read your response several times. Your response cleared up several questions for me. Thank you. I would still like to learn more about the internal PSI debate on premix versus partial pressure nitrox tank designations. I donât think we have a complete answer to the âair in a nitrox tankâ question. Assuming we have a clean source of air and that this source is meticulously maintained, what prohibits a dive shop from putting air in a nitrox tank? The answer that it is against PSI policy is not clear since Iâm not sure PSI policy equates to a legal regulation in this case.

I hope that PSI chooses to respond and chooses to educate.

rudolph_medic · 06-25-2003, 07:54 PM,

I just read the PSI article, and I don't know about anyone else, but I was very put off by his negative attitude. I feel that this forum is the place for people to get the FACTS and how better to find out about something than to talk to everyone else. With a forum like this people's opinon's are washed out with a free and open exchange.

There's my two cents-
I don't know if I would take a course from PSI based on the attitude shown from a simple question. BTW are we not ALL their customers!

LKunze · 06-26-2003, 04:55 AM,

I totally agree.

WIdiver_Paul · (This post was last modified: 11-13-2003, 01:59 PM by WIdiver_Paul.)

As a new diver to this forum, I would like to say, Greetings from Wisconsin! Perhaps i'll see some of you at Wazee....

Anyhoo, on the topic of nitrox/air fills- let's not forget about that training we paid for and the Equipment section of the PADI "Enriched Air Diver Manual" (page 9) which states, "Standard compressed air from a conventional fill station should never be put into an enriched air cylinder." The reason being that a standard compressor uses petroleum-based lubricants that produce hydrocarbons on the inside of your tank. Then during a partial pressure blend, 100% 02 is applied under pressure to these particles and *bam!* no more problem! So if you get a "dirty" fill on your nitrox tank, technically you should either have the tank 02 cleaned and re-Vipped or remove the nitrox VIP service and tank markings. The other downside to having an air fill in your nitrox tank is the possibility of backfeed into the fill whip and/or banks of the supplier. This could mean a dangerously wrong mix of 02 in a subsequent air fill or topoff. So the little dive store guy was doing the right thing according to his training, but ??

Seriously, I get air fills on my Nitrox tanks all the time, you just have to request "02 clean air fills", they can do this either with possibly the same compressor they use to top off 02 fills (this is why I use only a nitrox supplier for my air fills in a nitrox tank) or they can manually do it with their own 02/Nitrogen fill whip (which they use for the normoxic fills also). Questions, please?

Nice to meetch'all!
(Paul on RTL Diver III near Isle Royale)

LKunze · 11-13-2003, 02:00 PM,

Good points Paul, however in my case and for other divers that use the same tank for nitrox and air fills, we get "premix" nitrox fills and not partial pressure blended fills. In this case there is no issue at all as the premix blends are no higher than EAN40.