Ice block while diving

[arcFlash]

You could also say that the harness and rope attached to you pulls you away from your gear while your working, making a non issue into a drowning.

I wouldn't take my gear off. I'd call in my safety diver (or buddy) and we'd work it out together. If I had to unclip from the main line you do like in rock climbing, and close the system upline before you detach anything. You should never open a life support system.

I can see pushing it under but I would prefer it come out. It's a nice chair or table to keep gear out of the puddles. I'm not sure if a person could push 33 inches of ice under so it's got to come out.

[Deep Thought]

These are all theoretical concerns, yes possible but not to my experience in 30 years - never seen, never heard of such things.  And only the one situation where the turkey got stuck for moments and it was completely controlled "not staged" really! : was positive learning experience

The concept of the safety line wrapping around the block "unintentionally" is not very realistic, possible yes, but highly unlikely and it doesn't have any hands to jump out and catch things - it really is quite benign when pushed away from hole. 

Some of these situation are possible yes, and understand I am not advocating the push under technique as it is not really necessary anymore....Just that it works if you have the experience and use the correct techniques.

One of the considerations here is the type of line you use, as it is very common to use poly line that floats verse nylon or composite wraps like climbing line that I used to use that sinks - each has its own handling technique and skill to keep proper amount of slack in line.

Many years ago a diver was caught/entangled in a pipe/post under Christmas and almost drown - think of all the platforms and obstacles we put into lakes for training or amusement, they are more likely to entangle than the ice block.

The real boogey man of these dives is always the simple things that you learn in a proper class and from mentoring with an instructor - the class will teach you the agency standards, but by hanging out and doing it a while under supervision you really learn.  Simple things like moisture in inflators, or no lube in inflators that stick open - regulator free flows, etc... these are the little things that don't matter in sunny July at Crosby, but react completely different under the ice or in bitter topside environments. 

Not trying to cram classes here, just pointing out that it is a good option - you can also learn by experience with other divers, just do some checking and see how they operate - some teams are as good as they get.  And always remember this is a voluntary sport, the classes are voluntary and should be looked at not only beneficial from education standpoint, but FUN TOO!  The only thing that prevents shops and instructors from opening the doors to "experienced, but not certified" diver is liability/lawyers/insurance/lawsuits/ and the headaches the aformentioned presents...

Oh, never take your gear off u/w - let the tender take care of an entanglement - if it gets to this point, you are doing something way wrong in technique PPPPPP.

Walk Upside Down Under The Ice, Push Puddles of Mercury Around, See Frogs in Deep Sleep, just go dive!

Be safe

Deep Thought

[mcdiver]

I do not go under the ice unless I am wearing a harness, and that harness is under my BC.  I do not believe in just tying the rope to the BC's d-ring, you are just asking for trouble.

Regarding pushing the block of ice under the ice once it is cut, are you nuts?

I have dove with the block under the ice and it was nothing but a pain in the grass and a potential liability.

[NorthlandDivers]

I totally disagree with you about pushing the ice down.  We have done it for years with absolutely NO  problems at all.  Now that said everyone is entitled to their own opinion.  We use locking carbine's to attach the line to the divers harness although the D-ring on your harness is just sewn on  like the ones on the BC so either way it you want to look at all  possibilities of things that could go wrong it could tear off there as well.

[mcdiver]

The problem you have when the ice "chunk" is pushed beneath the ice is that the rope may get tangled around the ice block, but heck, that is a given.  But let's just say "What if." 

What if the diver starts his dive and ends up going in a direction that will cause the rope to get wrapped around this massive block of ice.  Now lets assume that the diver is unaware of this and he continues the dive, at what point is there a loss of "rope signals" between the diver and the tender as a result of the rope being wrapped around this block of ice?

Okay, so you lose your signals between tender and diver.  At what point do you send the safety diver in?

There is just one to many possibilities of miscommunication, and frankly, when my life may litterly be in the hands of my tender, do I really want to worry about that block of ice?  Heck No, yank that block out.

[DetectorGuy]

This is all good debate. I have been just laying in the weeds (as I have no right to an opinion) as I haven't dove under the ice yet... but soon. Its good to get these discussions going and let people make their decisions based on what they have learned. My only thought would be an analogy: If some kid played with fire when he was young and by some stroke of luck he didn't burn the barn down, and later he sat down in front of a bunch of kids and said "it didn't happen to me so therefore it must be safe". That might be the wrong message... Maybe I'm all wet... or not wet enough. Lets keep this debate going and hear from some others too.

[mcdiver]

A little phrase I like to use, and it has many applications, is, "Whatever makes you sleep better at night."

If you are comfortable knowing that the massive block of ice does not pose any type of threat, be it physical or psychological, than God Bless Ya and enjoy the dive. But, if you think there is a remote chance that your "life-line to the surface" may become entangled, then remove that block of ice.

[Deep Thought]

The basic principle of putting a terrestrial creature under the water is an insult to the psyche, no less frozen water...but we do such stupid things in the name of Fun?  Obviously we accept this risk as some form of entertainment, bravado or other, etc.  So it really doesn't matter how you sleep at night (or with whom) but are you comfortable with the risks of pushing an ice block under or the increased risks of hurting yourself by cutting excess ice, straining your back, by removing said ice block.  Again it boils down to technique - yes you can imagine all kinds of horrors when you do something wrong, but if you push the ice block under correctly and apply correct ice diving techniques no worries.

Its not a debate about who is right, its about how many ways are there to skin cats...and what you do with the cats after they are skinned?

In a week I'll be ice diving in Florida (ice in my cocktail that is- post dive of course) and staying at the humble abode of a former local instructor.  Thank goodness none of the caves have blocks to pull out or push under, I'm challenged enough with a perfectly open hole in the ground!

Deep Thought

 

[arcFlash]

What about us backplate and wing guys can't we clip our BC? I clip into a 2 inch web with a welded d-ring and no quick release. The only buckle is the waist  and that also has a crotch strap so it can not just fall off.

I've used a mountaineering chest harness in a hanging belay at something like 700 feet and it doesn't feel all that secure, I like the big wall harness and a simple sling to hold my torso up but there is no way in hell I'd trust a chest harness alone. If you think you can, PM me and we'll go repel and see how it feels. A BP&W with crotch strap is very close to my normal harness with the exception of the doubled back locks.

My one concern having had a bloody nose on an ice dive that made it impossible to clear my mask is calling the exit and crashing head fist into the block of ice. It may not kill me but it would hurt, knock me a little loopy and stress an already peak emotional state. We pulled the block out so if my tender read the 4 for what is was(I know) I had a clear shot to the hole but he didn't so I swam slowly following the yellow line with 1/2 of one eye and on exit told my tender that we need to work on emergency exit calls.

I just ordered some ice lines (3000lb) so I have a full kit now.

[Mr.Pitbull]

Personally, I would be more concerned about entaglements from things under the ice. Trees, structures, anything that has features that could cause a safety rope to knot itself and tie you up. But as prior folks have posted, we each have our own feelings about our own personal safety and what we feel are risks.