Ice block while diving

[DetectorGuy]

Being its still open water, and I am short of getting my Ice Cert... I will help you look if you can line me up with someone to patch my dry suit if I snag it on something.

[DiverQueen]

DQ how about decaying weed beds, current flowing over reefs or rock piles,
[/quote]



If decaying weedbed generates much heat, it would disperse into the water fairly quickly, but yes, it could cause some weakening of the ice. 

Current over reefs should probably be carrying some cocoanuts!  I'm out of my favorite Pina Colada!!!  ;D

Current over rockpiles and other structure may tend to scrub away at the bottom of the ice especially if it carries any sediment.....Like using a sandblaster on the cedar siding!  ; :o

[grumpie]

Remember that warmer water is at the bottom and colder at the top, so as the water hit the reef or rock pile it bounces up hitting the bottom of the ice and wears away at it. the same thing with fish, they start the warm water moving and it rises to the top and wears away at ice.
If you cut weep holes about 25-30 feet away from the main hole the air bubbles will escape from under the ice and the main hole will not erode as fast.
Ice anchors should be at leased 15-20 feet away from the hole. Tenders should be tried off and wearing life jackets also.
grumpie.......

[mstrdvr]

AHHH the joys of ice diving  8)

[Shooter]

Those trying tenders  ;D .  If the tender is wearing a dry suit, Would you still want him to have on his PFD?

[grumpie]

Yes, its easter to stay up right that way. if the tender tips over in the water as he falls,the pfd will right him. in your dry suit class, they should talked about tuck and roll to right yourself, with the pfd on it will do it for you

[Shooter]

What about Christmas ? ;D  I don't wear one, I have to add way too much weight when I dive :o I guess I am a non-conforming psd

[arcFlash]

Our ice hole is only big enough to get in and out of. It would be very difficult to fall in head first.  I can see this for mixed ice/ow rescue work.

[Deep Thought]

Pushing the Ice Blocks Under for Ice Diving has a long history of successful diving.  It was only 30 years ago when I trained in Ice Diving that it was popular with many stores in the twin cities to cut triangle shaped holes and push the ice below.  There were several reasons that this was popular, but the main reason I recall had to do with cutting ice by hand with an old time ice saw... We cut Triangle shaped ice holes as there were less sides, and the angles were acute to allow divers to back into for easy exit.  Since we did not cut the block into pieces that were easily managed, we pushed it under. 

Chainsaws have made short work of ice cutting and today it is very uncommon to see an old time ice saw in use, or pushing ice under.

I have photographs of Jack The Frogman ice diving in the mid 50's and at that time it was not totally established to have a lifeline, infact divers have related stories to me where they simply placed the divers flag or a marker down into the ice hole to help them see the exit!

Pushing the block under has some skill, but no more than driving on winter roads...oh - there were how many accidents today??? some people can drive on ice, some people can dive under the ice with a block safely....

I admit there are challenges to pushing the block away from the hole, once done it freezes to the sheet below - if pushed a few yards away does not entangle the line, and in all the years of diving with ice under or pulling out, there was only one time a loud mouth diver asked to push the triangle back into the hole - yes skill is required - this braggart was the only one to have the ice block slip back up into the hole.  So we pushed it out of the way, and asked another diver to simply swim the line around the block and exit with a loop around the block - when diver is out of the water, pull rope in and the block pops into place - done! 

Now if it were horror stories of ice diving techniques, I can tell tales of divers who use ungodly lengths of line to explore.  These people have obviously never had to practice a lost diver drill underwater, or they may realize just how impossible it would be to search such a large area... all it would take is one free flow and the tender would never know there was an problem, yet these people have not had an issue I am aware of???

So there are many ways to skin cats, and what one person may assume as reasonable behavior can be viewed by others as outrageous.  And getting away with something is not proof alone, just as training will not always guarantee reasonable behavior.  However the major training agencies have endorsed standards that are conservative and instructors generally have experience that is valuable.

I hope it is a busy season for diving, if this weather holds there will be plenty of ice. Talk is good, but nothing beats getting out and ice diving! 

Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment

[DetectorGuy]

My fear with pushing the ice under the ice is about two or three problems: the diver while looking for anchors or what ever circles around the hole (say 1 or 2 times) then he or she swims off in a direction and the floating rope has "lassoed" the block. before you know it the block has been drug back into the hole. Now the diver realized that the only exit has been erased. Panic sets in and the diver looses his or her mind. breathing heavy under the stress he or she starts to free flow... and the pucker factor increases. a couple minutes later the tender finally gets the ice block pushed back under the ice and hopefully all is good again...

The other scenario is that the diver circles back toward the submerged block and keeps making a circle around the submerged block. The diver gets his or her BC snagged on the re-bar that is sticking up off the bottom and the only way to get it untangled is to remove the BC (knowing that the tether rope is attached to the harness below it). during this process the tether rope gets tangled on the re-bar and the diver decides to unhook the tether for a second to untangle it. at the same time the tender gives one tug for confirmation and pulls the rope from the diver. Now the tender realizes that there is no diver on the rope and he or she checks to make sure they are tied off and jumps in and swims toward the direction the first divers rope was. Not realizing that the rope was looped around the block the safety diver is swimming 180 degrees in the wrong direction and the diver is still trapped on the bottom so he or she may as well be in a different lake.

Now these two things may not ever happen, but they could happen tomorrow. Does anyone in this thread think that this could never happen? Why add unnecessary risk to a recreational sport.