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+--- Thread: Nitrox fills (/showthread.php?tid=750)
Re:Nitrox fills - jasondbaker - 11-14-2003
I do not think the issue is shops that require you to remove the nitrox sticker before getting an air fill. The issue is shops that require the big fat nitrox sticker instead of a simple, disposable, contents sticker. This whole thing seems so simple.
A) You have a contents sticker but no O2 clean sticker = you can get premix up to 40%.
B) You have a contents sticker and O2 clean sticker = you can get premix/PP/ up to anything.
C) You have no contents sticker and no O2 sticker = standard air.
PSI guys, explain to us why this is not a legal, safe practice.
Re:Nitrox fills - WIdiver_Paul - 11-14-2003
I think it's all a non-issue as long as you are completely aware of what quality of air is going in your tank (you have inspected the fill station and have communicated with the filler) and then just make sure you re-analyse your tank gas, because chances are it's still 22%+ anyhow, from carry-over gas in the tank, which still makes it nitrox. This should actually be a "legal" topoff and fill according to everyone, as long as the air is indeed clean... And as far as PADI goes, I find it interesting that they would contradict the tank labeling requirements which are on the test for all enriched air diving students! I seem to remember that the large tanks need a Green/Yellow sticker exactly 4" high, and a smaller sticker for Pony tanks, etc. when using Nitrox, according to their standards.... wait, here it is (ahem)...
"1. Yellow cylinders should have a 10 centimetre 4 inch green band around the tank shoulder with yellow or white lettering reading "Enriched Air" "Enriched Air Nitrox,""Nitrox," or a similar designation.
2. Nonyellow cylinders should have a 15 centimetre/ 6 inch band around the tank shoulder. The top and bottom of this band should be a yellow 2.5 centimetre/ 1 inch band, with the center 10 centimetres/ 4 inches green. The green portion should have yellow or white lettering reading "Enriched Air, "Enriched Air Nitrox," "Nitrox," or similar designation.
3. Enriched air cylinders should have a dated annual visual inspection sticker (decal) stating that the cylinder has been serviced and inspected for enriched air use. The sticker should also indicate if the cylinder does or does not meet oxygen service standards for partial pressure blending.
4. Enriched air cylinders should have a contents sticker (decal) or permanent tag. This sticker/ tag should, at a minimum, list the oxygen content of the blend the cylinder currently holds, the fill date, the maximum depth for the blend, and the name of the person who analyzed the oxygen content to verify the blender's analysis (this should be the diver who will use the tank). Stickers are replaced and tags rewritten when yo have the cylinder refilled. Do not remove the sticker or erase the tag after using the cylinder (the blender will do this when you have the cylinder refilled). If a permanent tag is used, the cylinder's serial number should be on the tag to prevent it from accidentally getting switched to another cylinder.
5. Besides the markings above, local laws and regulations may require additional or modified markings on enriched air cylinders. Some areas have recommendations or requirements that an enriched air cylinder be used within a given period, such as within 30 days of filling, and the cylinder may be marked accordingly. Your instructor will tell you about any that apply to your local area."
And there it is, gospel from our lord, the heavenly standards of PADI, hallowed be thy name! (hope thy lawyers don't come)
(check out this link below-cut and paste-, these guys need to find a new place to dive or something!)
Re:Nitrox fills - WIdiver_Paul - 11-14-2003
Also, in fairness to the Gary Thompson, from the dive shop that started this thread, I want to state that I would actually prefer to do my fills there because at least you know they're probably not doing stupid things with your fills, like doing a full bleed-off and then leaving the tank outside in the rain with the valve open (before filling it for the diver to go on a cold water dive!) - this actually happened to me! So don't hold it against him, he's "Doing It Right" IMHO....
Re:Nitrox fills - tpscuba - 11-14-2003
Paul: that is a good point it does state that in the training manual on page 11 it also states that is generaly agreed upon the international dive community (not just PADI) there are 15 certifying agencies in the community, but if you go further in the manualto page 79 it talks about the fill tag or sticker at a minimum it also talks about the filler releasing the remaining air if necessary. I would like for you to call John at PADI IRRA 1-800-729-7234 as he is the one that passed the info on.
For Jason on the content sticker that is all the DOT requires of any cylinder I think the big fat sticker is more a sales issue. I like seeing clean tanks when they come in for ispection. People try to hide those bad dings under them and also when they have used body puddy to smooth out a dent. Most cylinder failures happen during filling and my wife wants me around for a few more years (Idon't have life insurance ha ha ha)
Re:Nitrox fills - DRE - 11-15-2003
The big fat yellow sticker doesn't tell you anything - it's just another way for the industry to make money. Just use a piece of ducttape when you'refilling the tank. Indicate the date, your name and each gas you put in (if doing PP filling). Indicating the psi of each gas you put in will allow you to walk away from the tank and return later (if you absolutely have to) without missing a beat. Once the tank is filled you analyze the gas and write the exact content on the ducttape as well. Then you can add the MOD of the gas.
For all stage bottles you do this same thing, but you also put the MOD in three inch numbers on two sides of the tank so there is no confusion possible as to which gas you're breathing.
Can it be any simpler and cheaper than this?
Re:Nitrox fills - tpscuba - 11-15-2003
Very simple the big stickers is just to get another dollar from you. It is up to the store if they want more and if it is your last resort and you can't go else where and you absolutely have to have a Nitrox fill instead of living with air than you'll just have to pay the price.
I think we should get together somewhere in Mpls. have reresentatives from PADI, NAUI, PSI, and any other agency come in and discuss this face to face.
Re:Nitrox fills - Freedive WI - 11-15-2003
DRE and I are on the same page when it comes to tank markings and blending-- stickers are gimmciks to make money.
I don't know why you would need to have people from the different orginizations get together to talk about anything since there are no laws covering stickers.
The DOT says that you need your tanks hydro'd if you want to transport them. All this buisness of annual VIP's is just dive industry stuff- just like C-cards since there aren't any actual laws requiring c-cards, just dive industry self-policing that make them neccessary.
The only thing I have ever had on mine are mine are a small contents sticker by the valve, that I use when blending, and my MOD clearly marked on the side of the bottle- and many of these were painted on, not a silly sticker.
Jon
Re:Nitrox fills - tpscuba - 11-15-2003
It is not an annual visual inspection. It has to be at least once a year and if a tank comes in for a fill and has bad dings on it or something else it can be done sooner.
If you send me your fax I will send you the regulation on it. Or you can go to any hydro tester and ask for the manual look it up
This will come out of the D.O.T regulation manual CF 49 page 174.34 this is all the information on hydros and visual inspections This isn't a dive industry reg. it came about because of accidents and deaths that have occured just like the starting of MSHA and OSHA
Re:Nitrox fills - Hochi - 11-16-2003
I have watched this now for a few days and I guess I have to put my 2 cents in. You all seem to agree that it's not the size of the sticker that counts, but that there is something that lets someone know whats in there and how much. Congradulations!!!
But in the proccess you seem to want to bash at those who seem to like the stickers or the chevrons. They just like to display their accomplishments in one way or another. Just like those that have bought the shirts or sweaters that have Mnscuba on them it shows they belong to something good. Being retired from the milatary after severing 24 years I display my silver stars, bronze stars, purple hearts, accomidations and the what not, that and 50 cents will get me a cup of coffee in a cheap diner, but I am proud of them. Just like all you that display your accomplishments.
I dove on rebreathers when I'd say 90% of you were still having mom powder your behind. I have also seen what happens when one gets so confident that they think they know everything about it and start to do short cuts. These people either died (malfunction bail out) had blood running from there ears, etc.
The stickers, the inspections are there for our safety and if not for ours but for those that might not know and grab the wrong tank when with a group of divers. Inspections are done to protect you and the person that is filling that tank just ask the 22 year old from south Florida that lost his hand while filling a tank that had a neck crack or the families of the 2 in Illinios that thought they could mix their own gas and the tank exploded.
If you don't want to spend money on items that you feel is ridculous that's fine but don't belittle those that do. Look back to when you were making your first dive everything impressed us. And I bet as I did you did the same and bought some of those sticker, chevrons, shirts, and was proud to show it off.
Enough said good diving and enjoy life it is all to short to get so petty
Re:Nitrox fills - DRE - 11-16-2003
Hochi,
I agree with you that if you like to display your diving accomplishments by putting a sticker on your tank that that should not be belittled. However, I cannot agree with your reasoning that the nitrox sticker is there for your safety - in my opinion it even increases potential disaster as it lulls divers into a false sense of safety. The big nitrox sticker on a tank gives you absolutely no indication as to what gas is in the tank: it might be filled with an EAN40, in which case taking it to 130ft might prove fatal for the diver in question. Without a proper contents label the big nitrox sticker is absolutely useless!
Personally, I label all my tanks all the time, even if they have air in them. If training agencies would teach proper tank identification procedures (ie based upon proper content identification rather than big flashy empty messages) there never would be an issue in the first place. We all were taught in our basic OW to check our tank pressure before we go diving, but proper content identification is not part of the process. Now I ask you, which one of these two procedures will kill you more easily?