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+--- Thread: ice diving harness question (/showthread.php?tid=3142)
Re: ice diving harness question - grumpie - 12-26-2006
Good Evening, we normally dive one diver down, the teather line has comm-wire in it and the tender is talking and listening to the diver. there is a back up diver all geared up and read to go if a problem comes up. There is 90% diver also ready to go if need be. there is a lot of redundancy in what we do. We did a job on lake minnetonka where had almost 6,000 of rope out and about 6 tenders.
grumpie........
Re: ice diving harness question - MAXFACTOR - 12-26-2006
ArcFlash.... Â that is exactly correct. Â Use a separate harness underneat your regular setup, and this is what you are connected to for your life line. Â Also, there are some handling of the ropes on your hands and across your chest, so that you don't get pulled or jerked back when your tender is communicating with you for the safety ok checks. etc.
When we dive, we'll go over all of this as a pre dive briefing and as a mental refresher along with signals etc. Â
Many divers have different number of pulls for the "communication checking" etc..... Â Which is something I wish should be standarized across the agencies. Â Did I say that ! Â
It was good diving with you up in Crosby about 1 month ago. Â Did you like the tour, the sites and the visibility? Â
maxfactor
Re: ice diving harness question - MAXFACTOR - 12-26-2006
Grumpie, thats incredible. But it's also over a mile of line. Can you explain a little bit what you meant by 6000 feet of line out. Does your com setup actually extend that far. Or are you talking about multiple divers searching in different directions to your primary entry point?
Missed you at the coffee shop on Lyndale Weds.
maxfactor.
Re: ice diving harness question - MNDiver - 12-26-2006
arcFlash
There are lots of ways to dive and lots of different diving conditions. There is no one right way to dive (DIR people please leave me alone >
). So it is up to you to take some classes and decide for yourself the best way to risk your life. The more you study the better decisions you can make. I have ice cards from four different agencies for that very reason. I really like ice diving, but don't want to die doing it.  A personal risk assessment is always a great idea. I would rather be alive than macho and dead. I think that saying about pilots applies to ice diving... there are old pilots, there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.... (substitute ice divers for pilots). 
I am also a public safety diver. Many of the locally taught ice procedures are close to what we use for PSD. What works for PSD divers may or may not work for others.  Typically PSD divers train for certain conditions and don't dive outside their well rehearsed protocols.  Point being, they may not dive in the same conditions that you do and their protocols may not be appropriate.  For what is is worth, most PSD procedures work well for me while recreationally ice diving.
That said, I don't know about "the board" but I would suggest a separate harness.  For me it just seems to work better.  I have used about five differnet BCD's while ice diving and I still like the harness. I have not used your particular BCD, so I can't give you any feedback there. Try it in the pool and see how it works.Â
I gave a few reasons I like the harness on my other post. Here are a few more, perhaps they will help with your risk assessment, perhaps not.Â
I like to see the harness on the diver as they are approaching the hole. Then tether them right away. Once seated they can put all their gear on, weights last and certainly after they are tethered.  When diving with a lot of people, it just helps the flow of people and the overall safety factor.  I have seen divers approach the hole and slip and fall into the hole.  OK, my dog has even slipped under the ice while diving, but that is another story all together....
You mentioned entrapment. Could be a concern. I feel that anytime you connect yourself to a big heavy rope, you may increase the risk of being caught on something. So if you get caught, what do you do. The protocol I follow is to stop, signal for help and wait. Buddies can bring me air all day if they have to while they cut me out of whatever I am stuck in. The worst stuff I have swam into without knowing was some loosely rolled barbed wire. Man that sucked... Some people advocate tyring to slip out of your gear, get untangled, and slip back into your BCD. If you do this and for some reason you loose your BCD (an air) you are SOL so you could debate harness/no harness doesn't matter. I can see it now.. just as you get out of your bcd and start to free yourself, your buddies give you some OK tugs and your BCD and air jump away... Â
For me, the harness also stays on no matter what.....if you have to adjust your BCD, tank, get unstuck, or whatever.  The harness is low drag close to your body so it is easy to manage.  If worse comes to worse I can slip out of my BCD and have my buddies pull me in, even if I pass out, can't find my way or whatever. I figure my chances are better with them doing mouth to mouth than me running out of air on the bottom still entrapped or floating somewhere untethered while they try to find me.Â
Second question.  Yes, one diver down. Most PSD divers do it that way and perhaps that is where it came from.  I am not much of a historian, so I don't really know.  With only one diver down we can focus on our mission, not our buddy. We dive this way year round, not just under ice. You mentioned entrapment. If there are two of us together then we are both trapped.  Having a back-up diver out of the water takes care of this problem by allowing the back-up to enter the scene knowing there is an entrapment problem and be looking for the problem and how to fix it. All the primary diver has to do is wait.  I also know that buddy teams have erroneously clipped themselves through the line (instead of to the line) and when one comes undone, they both do. I think that PADI endorses buddy teams under the ice. Right now I can't think of any other agency that does.Â
Does anyone out here know for sure which agencies teach two down at one time???
Good luck, and be safe....
Re: ice diving harness question - grumpie - 12-26-2006
Early winter when there was only a inch or two one the lake the hole could be seen. Rescuer if they walk on the lake they would go through. they were roped together and crawled out on the ice with long spaces between them. they finely got a airboat for the job. you could see the rug up in front of the boat as it came across the lake.
grumpie........
Re: ice diving harness question - tcjtn0 - 12-26-2006
Er , and they say Cave Diving is NUTS !!!! :o
It's interesting for me to read the posts on the thread here and try to compare it to my training down here.
Would make an interesting discussion.
Oh , I would use my harness on my backplate for attaching the rope to but that's I guess force of habit now. I removed my backup-lights from my shoulder D rings and they would be a good place to clip off to. My scooter ring would work too , but I would prefer the shoulder D ring. The ONLY reason I would EVER remove my gear is to get unstuck from something , but since I am FOLLOWING a line (caving) and not ATTACHED to one (iceing) , it's different , so I'll refrain ( lol ) .
MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR FROM Cave Country !!!
Jeano Beano
P.S. And I don't miss Ice Diving...
Re: ice diving harness question - corndogg2 - 12-27-2006
I disagree. Mortal Combat is a very good game. However, I believe Donkey Kong is the best game ever!
Re: ice diving harness question - scubadog76 - 12-27-2006
Grainger stores locally have plenty of different styles that are not shown on their website. They put their higher end stuff on this page.
Re: ice diving harness question - arcFlash - 12-27-2006
I'm agreeable, thanks MNDiver.
I used 'the board' to be polite so as not to identify any one person. After all, we're in this together.
I think we all want to be safe. I know I try but how am I suppose to do it correctly when my agency tells me that my harness is acceptable. What the HELL.... I mean why is it that we have so many ways and half seam to be inadequate? The agencies dole out information on a fee basis and then I learn it's not a good system. This really burns me! I was a good safe climber for years with hundreds of climbs and we never had this problem. Sure we got lost and off route some times but that part of the sport. But we all did it the same and the information was free. If someone didn't do it right everyone would tell them the same thing. 12 climbers would all have the same answer. I've got $$$$ into scuba training and some of it's crap? What parts?
This sport has too many options and too many gear choices. It shouldn't be this hard to control risk. If I don't get the c-card, I can't play but getting the card mean I may not learn it well. Oh Joy! >
Thanks Maxfactor. It's all good.
However, I believe Dig Doug is the best game ever.
Looking good Billy Ray!
Re: ice diving harness question - Shooter - 12-28-2006
Adding an additional harness with my gear configuration was bulky , cumbersome, and unsafe. I already wear a harness with my back plate and wings configuration. I know where all of my d-rings are am comfortable with them. I don't have to see them to find them, I know where they are and what is attached to them. When I did my training I had to wear it. I could see its usefulness when wearing a standard fitting B.C. I think an agency needs to train and change along with times in advances in gear and technology. 8) I also think that one agency telling another agency that a particular gear configuration is wrong is unacceptable. There are many different safe ways to dive.