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+--- Thread: Madiera this Saturday (/showthread.php?tid=1250)
Re:Madiera this Saturday - ScubaDiveandTravel - 04-01-2004
Dear gillenvy,
I am glad you feel comfortable expressing your OPINION. That's what this site is for. First of all, Solo diving as a PADI instructor is not against their standards. In my humble opinion, some people should not be solo diving. For others however it can be conducted quite safely. With the proper equipment, training and experience it can be much safer than buddy diving, especially when your buddy is less experienced than you are. In this particular situation, it seems to have been a bad call. I do believe it is important to examine the cause of this problem. It was not solo diving. I have conducted hundreds of safe solo dives, and feel very confident in my abilities to deal with almost any diving situation. In the technical community, we call the examination of diving accidents "Accident Analysis"
Here we go.
Gear:
1. Scuba freak did not have the right equipment for the dive. He was diving a single tank with no redundant air supply.
2. He was diving with Scuba Pro regulators. In my humble opinion and from experience with these Self Contained Underwater Free-flowing Apparatuses (SCUFA), they have no place in cold water environments.
Training:
1. Inadequate solo diver training
Conditions:
1. Possibly unsafe solo diving conditions due to waves
Let's all take a lesson home from this and hopefully it will make us more conscientious divers.
Happy Diving,
Richard
Re:Madiera this Saturday - jasondbaker - 04-01-2004
It sounds like the biggest problem was his inability to don fins properly. I saw the same thing happen with a buddy when he jumped into Superior at the Hesper access. He didn't have his fins on yet and the waves were slamming him against the breakwall. You are really at the mercy of the waves and current without your fins.
Also, I like to put some air in my wing before entering the water to establish boyancy right away. That way I don't have to deal with multiple tasks if I encounter a problem.
I'm not sure if Gillenvy is being too hard on Scubafreak or not. If Scubafreak is an instructor, he may need to take a trip to the woodshed. But my guess is that the experience was the appropriate punishment for his mistakes. He can use the experience as a way to educate others. If it can happen to an instructor it can happen to anyone. It has definitely made me stop and think.
Re:Madiera this Saturday - DanL - 04-01-2004
Question for Richard -
Liked the objective analysis, but why did you say doubles were required? Redundancy for a solo diver? Cold/deep dive?
If I dive the Madiera with others, single AL80 is OK, isn't it?
Thanks,
Dan
Re:Madiera this Saturday - Punky - 04-01-2004
"As I entered the water and started to put my fins on in waist deep water, I was suddenly pulled-out to deeper water without warning,"
"I found myself being pulled-out to deeper water at a fairly fast rate. My mask was on and my reg was over my soldier, so all I had to do was inflate my BC, which was done fairly quickly"
In this situation I would guess that any buddy he had would be busy dealing with the same problems Scubafreak was, assuming they entered the water at the same time. If he entered ahead of his buddy I doubt the buddy would be able to react and fin fast enough to be much help until the current
let up. Then the help getting back to shore would be nice.
I'm glad you were able to keep your head and deal with a situation that could be bad if a diver panics.
Just my .02
Re:Madiera this Saturday - ScubaDiveandTravel - 04-02-2004
Dan,
Doubles are not required, but a redundant air source is definitely protocal in this situation. This could mean a pony bottle or doubles. I have been guilty of many solo dives on the madiera with a single 80, but I don't believe it is the safest system. I now choose to use redundancy every time I dive, with the exception of easy splashes in the tropics. I have a set of twin 50's with an isolator that I use now for local diving, and it's awesome. I have complete redundancy, and doubles are far more stable than singles. I just picked up 3 more sets if you would like to try them. They weight little more than a single with weights in your BC.
Re:Madiera this Saturday - gillenvy - 04-02-2004
Protocal? (...try to SELL more gear, we don't have enough)
(Tireless are the transparent SALES PITCHES guised as âHUMBLEâ opinion. I donât think buying more gear has any equality to that we need to use our brains more often before situations like this happen. Though it's quite certain some in their domineering arrogance we'll keep reminding us that more gear and classes can be a solution, got to keep SELLING!
)THE SIMPLEST REDUNDANT AIR SOURCE IS FREE â A BUDDY.
Scubafreak: Being a PADI Instructor...
Among other safe diving practices, PADI states: âAdhere to a buddy system throughout every dive. Plan dives â including communications, procedures for reuniting in case of separation and emergency procedures â with my buddy.â
Even if his buddy had taken a little more time then him to get into the water, they could have probably caught up to Scubafreak as they would have had their fins on going the same direction. Maybe even have handed Scubafreak his other fin instead of having to tow him?
Maybe the buddy would have reminded the Instructor - Scubafreak, that it might have been more prudent to suit up fully on land before wading in, inflate their BCDâs beforehand. Buddy checks and establishing buoyancy I learned in my beginning scuba lesson.
Maybe another person would have offered advice to even call the dive? Or call for help?
A BUDDY would have been the extra set of fins, an extra air source, an extra set of eyes of what not to miss, and an extra brain to help remind the Instructor to STOP, THINK, before acting and getting into the water. Much of this canât be purchased at a dive store, but can be shared together as a team with another, at perhaps even greater enjoyment..
PADI: âBe familiar with my dives sites. If not, obtain a formal diving orientation from a knowledgeable, local source. If diving conditions are worst than those in which I am experienced, postpone diving or select an alternate site with better conditions. Engage only in diving activities consistent with my training and experience.â
Protocal: Read Above!
Furthermore: âI understand the importance of and purposes of these established practices. I recognize they are for my own safety and well-being, and that failure to adhere to them can place me in jeopardy when diving.â
PRUDENT: Read Above!
Not following this, I believe Scubafreak earned his incident, and thank goodness heâs lucky it turned out for the better. Unlike Richard, I donât think a PADI Professional Diving Instructor has the right to choose when it is CONVENIENT to follow PADIâs safe diving guidelines or not. To me, you canât have it both ways, why be a PADI instructor then? If so, don't tell me what you teach is what I and my family learned - that's a discredit to what we accept and follow to be safer divers and ahere to it.
If you want to put yourself or others in activities that involve even higher risk or potential harm than recreational diving, then you shouldnât be teaching for PADI. Iâm sure you can find many ways like others to SELL to the higher risk seekers.
Nothing beats what we already have, a brain â itâs up to all of us to use it. As stated, established practices that the recreational diver employs help limit potential jeopardy, and in my opinion, nothing beats dive buddy teams - two brains offer smarter safety redundancy than anything you can buy.
Re:Madiera this Saturday - chrisw - 04-02-2004
I have to weigh in on this dead horse...
in MN we are not used to SURF conditions. We have lots
of lovely small, shallow lakes that produce some nice
chop in high winds but not many places have surf.
From what I have seen of divers at the Madeira site
there is a general lack of knowledge of regarding lake conditions,
on the surface and below water wrt to waves, surf, swell and surge.
And a lack of training/knowledge about how to enter/exit
and traverse the site in other than extremely calm conditions.
I know many divers who have been up there who dont even know
what a nearshore forecast is, much less how to find it or
how to interpret it if they did find it.
Regardless, that site is a b-i-t-c-h for entry/exit in anything
less than 6 inch waves. First off its a steep beach which
means the waves are going to break tall and hard right at
shore. Additionally it is next to a wall AND a point.
A classic setup for great big reflective waves (clapotis)
and surge.
I guess my point is this: it is a tough site prone to poor
conditions and, from what I have seen and from what I can
gather from talking with area divers, "we" need more training
to better handle it. gear and buddy issues aside.
*donning flame retardant dry suit liner*
Re:Madiera this Saturday - Dirt - 04-02-2004
There are so many things wrong with this statement.
People always have the right to choose. Always! As a PADI instructor, PADI can dictate the standards I use when I teach PADI classes, but that's it. How I dive when I don't have students with is my own business.
PADI doesn't have a full cave class. So what you're saying is that if I get cave certified from a different agency I shouldn't be allowed to be a PADI instructor? Does that sound logical?
Gillenvy, do you always wear a snorkel? If not, (according to you) you are in direct violation of PADI standards.
Do you do the predive safety check every time you dive? I doubt it.
If I take a Solo Diver course from another agency should PADI immediatly be able to pull my instructor license? Why should they?
Have you ever entered a shipwreck or cavern/caribbean swim-through without the property "PADI Specialty"?
I don't know scubafreak or how he dives; but he's well within his rights to do whatever he feels comfortable with. I only hope that when people solo dive they use common sense & good judgement.
Re:Madiera this Saturday - lrmoll - 04-02-2004
I would think that any solo dive should have a completely redundant air supply. If one is going to do solo dives at all. Single point failure modes are a bad thing.
Re:Madiera this Saturday - lrmoll - 04-02-2004
By the way I have seen the statement made that maybe a person is safer properly trained and equipped in a solo dive than with an inexperienced buddy. Is there objective evidence for this or is it a rationalization for those who want to feel better about solo dive? I have even heard it said that maybe you end up with two injuries instead of one at times. The safest is probably a buddy and a redundant air supply. Pony instead of doubles so I could leave extra air behind and possible go for help.